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JeepFever View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov. 2017 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

Originally posted by JeepFever JeepFever wrote:

...Decisions, decisions
... well in that case, are you dead set on not using a D18 with offset diff? ..... I mean, the D41 is actually a pretty strong rear axle, IMO,  you can keep the 5.38s and your overdrive.  go with a granny tranny and now you have a basement that is in the 80's and an FDR of 4.3..... and you already have everything.  Then start wheeling while you are on the lookout for an offset flanged D44 ...... or stay with the D41.

... I guess I'm saying, if you stick with offset rear, you can swap this stuff out as you go with less down time.  In my own experience, I like the D20 because you can do front wheel drive.  I have used this twice to fix a situation where I got jacked up on a greasy hill..... but what i don't like about it is that I've noticed that the centered pumpkin has been detrimental to me compared to  sonoblast77, smfulle, and Bob W where they were able to straddle a rock, but I'd catch it on my centered diff.  Maybe wouldn't be so bad with tires bigger than 31" ..... just one of my observations.


A few reasons I was thinking the flanged D44 over the existing rear*
1) I already have this model D44. :-)   My nature is not to take time to shop around and find things,  particularly if rare. (like an offset flanged axle.)
2) I don't trust my OD .  it seems fragile to me . . grinds when shifting sometimes,  and has popped out of gear a few times.  I am afraid of breaking it one day. I would feel much safer putting it into my 4-cyl '3A
3) the 10-spline LockRite in rear has done an amazing job, considering the many years of use,  but I wonder how much life it still has in it.   I would prefer a durable selectable locker,  and as far as I know, none are available for 10-spline,  so would have to swap out shafts, I assume.

* actually a D44,  a PO must have swapped in at some point.   I always thought that was better than a D41,  but not according to this thread by OldTimer  Shocked    



I definitely agree that a Jeep belongs on the trail,   not in the shop,   and don't want to leave it disabled too long.   I even thought about building all this up on another frame,  but not sure how practical that would be.




Edited by JeepFever - 09 Nov. 2017 at 3:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov. 2017 at 3:42am
I have been thinking about "gearing" over the past couple weeks. My '2A is a working Jeep, and probably spends most of its time in low range, 1st gear 39:1 or somewhere just taller than that (low/1st OD 29:1, or Low/2nd 24:1)
When I have to "hit the road", then it typically stays in High range, with OD in High also.

I want to keep those ranges, but also gain a granny low for the few occasions that I want to go slower.

To make it more visual, I created some graphs.

This one shows difference between current setup, and my most-likely upgrade. The current setup is good, in that there are lots of choices between 5:38 and 39:1, BUT it lacks a granny gear.

Current: Ignore the green bars, and see how evenly spaced the blue choices are.
Proposed: not as many choices, but has a granny




High Range comparison   . . two concerns here ->
1) I want a taller final ratio. As mentioned before, I sometimes want to go 60 mph, and just don't like to hear the engine spinning so fast.
(3.73 is taller than current 4.03)
2) starting from a stop . . I sometimes feel current 1st in OD is too tall. Nice thing about proposed 13.4:1 is that the start up gear is between 1st normal 15.8:1, and 1st OD 11.8



Low Range comparison . . biggest concern here -> I want to keep the working "sweet spot" of 39:1 to 29:1 . .   the proposed setup does that with a gear at 35:1



Bottom line. .   my current thought is to go with 3.73 gears and a Dana 300 (both of which, I already have)

Edited by JeepFever - 21 Nov. 2017 at 4:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov. 2017 at 3:52am
Interesting, I thought I might want to "upgrade" to a 4:1 kit in the Dana 300 some day, but after looking at the numbers, I would probably be disappointed for my use.

Although it does give an amazing 99:1 bottom, and Jpet's desired 50:1 (I saw he mentioned recently in another thread) . . it does not have anything in my "working" sweet spot.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov. 2017 at 2:02am
I don't fully understand exactly what your individual lines represent.
In the very first chart you have two sets of blue lines.
I fail to understand exactly why you have two sets of blue and what they both mean to represent.

Otherwise....
This is a fine example of your attempt toward: GEAR RANGE PROPORTIONING
Gear Range Proportioning entails the symmetry of the ratio changes.
The  topic of "JEEP RANGING" is a very important detail to consider.

The RANGE itself is the entire span from lowest to highest.
The Gear Range is but only a part of the complete synchronous system.
The gear selection  "RANGES" from lowest possible ratio to the highest possible ratio.

The GEAR RANGING needs to work in unison along with the RPM RANGING.
I'll explain more when I begin my proposed topic of Jeep Ranging.

Quote 1) I want a taller final ratio. As mentioned before, I sometimes want to go 60 mph, and just don't like to hear the engine spinning so fast. 
(3.73 is taller than current 4.03)

What your calling the "final ratio" is what I call the "CRUISE RATIO"
4.03 is your present Hiway Cruise Ratio.
It is but one end of the "OVERALL GEAR SPAN"
The smaller numbered ratio of the "OVERALL GEAR SPAN" is the "CRUISE RATIO"

Quote 2) starting from a stop . . I sometimes feel current 1st in OD is too tall. Nice thing about proposed 13.4:1 is that the start up gear is between 1st normal 15.8:1, and 1st OD 11.8
This is the "TAKE OFF RATIO" meaning the normal ratio that is used when starting out on the pavement.
It is not the slowest nor is it the fastest ratio.
I always falls somewhere in between the CRAWL RATIO and the CRUISE RATIO.
And yes there happens to be a TIME PROVEN STANDARD TAKE OFF RATIO.

Quote Low Range comparison . . biggest concern here -> I want to keep the working "sweet spot" of 39:1 to 29:1 . .   the proposed setup does that with a gear at 35:1
 

Your "sweet spot" merely designates a desire-able ratio to your liking.
37/1 crawl ratio is the time proven Willys standard crawl ratio.
That particular crawl ratio was used by Willys over a greater time span than any other crawl ratio.


Guess I need to start that topic about JEEP RANGING.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov. 2017 at 4:36am
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

I don't fully understand exactly what your individual lines represent.
In the very first chart you have two sets of blue lines.
I fail to understand exactly why you have two sets of blue and what they both mean to represent.


It was "busy" to me, and I created it. haha . . .. plus, I did not provide much explanation

Hopefully this helps a little

(first off, you mentioned before that Willys ratio should be 37:1 not 39:1, but I did not follow thru until now. . . I had the wrong gear ratios for T90.   I corrected these charts but need to go back and get them all).

This is stock:





These are the ratios that the OD added.    All 12 bars are blue in my first chart (the OD slightly darker than stock)



I was assuming all this was related to the "Ranging" you have mentioned before. Looking forward you your thread.

Edited by JeepFever - 21 Nov. 2017 at 4:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov. 2017 at 2:45am
O.K. those charts make sense.
If you need ratio specs just ask I have ratios available for all the Borg Warner Jeep transmissions.

All MB, GPW transfer cases 1941-1945 were 1.97 ratio.
The 24.3 ratio Dana 18 was used  on CJ's 1945-1954-1/2.
The 2.46 ratio Dana 18 was used  on CJ's 1954-1/2 to 1971 
The Jeep Dana 20's are all 2.03 from the factory
Dana 20 can be converted to 2.46 ratio with rare Dana parts or 3.15 with Tera Flex gears.
Jeep Dana 300 are all 2.62.

MB GPW differentials were all 4.88
All Jeep CJ differentials are 5.375 prior to November 1962
4.27 became the CJ standard after 11/62 through 1971 and 5.375 became optional.
All CJ with optional Dauntless engines (1966-1971) were standard with 3.73 ratio and 4.89 rear 4.88 front were optional.
3.73 remained standard 1972 through 1975 and 4.27 ratio became the option.
Beginning in 1976 the 3.54 differential ratio was standard.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov. 2017 at 1:09am
I was searching for something else,  and came across this thread,  . . .  lot of the same info,  but in even more detail.
 
 
Today was nice outside,  so I took off half day from work.   I was in the Jeep mood.    Nowhere near ready for big changes yet,  but to make some very small progress - >  swapped some wheels,  and cleaned up parts.
 
The tires/wheels are intended for '3A project,  but I think I might run them if I do a organized trail run.  Not as cool as NDT's,   but might add some challenge and look more authentic.
 
 
 
Cleaned up the 44 and the 300.   They came out of my mini salvage yard and were covered in mud and crud.   Not 100% sure I will be using them,  but fairly sure.
 
 
As oldtime mentioned in above thread,   the pinion is actually offset 1" towards passenger on these D44 "centered" axles.  Smile  (to allow the shafts to be equal length)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov. 2017 at 2:29am
Those are couple of real nice looking and very  high quality assemblies you have.
I easily see why you would hope to use them.

FYI In case you have not noticed ... I finally got started on the RANGING topic.

Will be rather lengthy.

Started it over on the 3B forum.

Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec. 2017 at 4:46am
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

Those are couple of real nice looking and very  high quality assemblies you have.
I easily see why you would hope to use them.
 
They cleaned up nice with wire brush and some sand blasting.   Hopefully the insides are also as good.   (I pulled the covers,  and the gears etc. "look" to be in good condition).

Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

FYI In case you have not noticed ... I finally got started on the RANGING topic.
 
Yes . .  I am watching. Smile

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_Board/topic/1183361/1/


Edited by JeepFever - 01 Dec. 2017 at 4:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec. 2017 at 8:50pm
Making a decision is not getting any easier.  Confused  LOL
 
I decided to call Novak to get some advice.   To save time,  I was/am even considering buy a complete assembly from them,  (tranny/adapter).   Before I did that,  I put together some numbers from their website to get an idea of the "size" of each combination.   The shortest length is 12.9",  the longest is 15.2"
 
TrannyxferAdaptTotalweight
SM420D204.415.2135
D3003.213.9
SM465D201.013.0175
D3003.515.2
NP435D203.514.2135
D3003.213.9
T18D201.012.9145
D3003.215.2
 
 
I called Novak and described my situation.   CJ2A and only "givens" are engine and rearend.   He said that with that engine he recommends the SM420!!  haha.     His next choice would be SM465,  because it would also bolt directly to GM bell housing etc.

I mentioned the downfalls of 420,  1) the bulge on passenger side,  his answer -> plenty of others have got it to work   2) I heard the 420 does not shift as well, his answer -> all the truck transmissions shift like that.   He did start to say something about the synchros,  but the conversation diverted, and I forget now why he did not finish. 
 
Obviously,  the whole conversation is too long to share here.
 
So now,  I am re-thinking the SM420  . .  cheapest (If I take the time to rebuild myself),  69:1 (darn close to 75:1  haha),  only 1" longer than shortest combo,  but has the other disadvantages mentioned above

Compared to NP435  . .  least expensive of the complete units from Novak,  same length as 420 combo, but will require some mods to bellhousing etc.  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec. 2017 at 10:23pm
This thing might interest you....
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec. 2017 at 4:05am
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

One can never have too many options !


That IS the problem-> too many options, and all a compromise. :-)    

Not sure what that spacer is worth, without the shaft?

Edited by JeepFever - 03 Dec. 2017 at 4:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec. 2017 at 4:18am
I pulled the top cover on the (2) SM420's I have, and everything looks to be in great shape. The syncros have sharp points. (that probably does not mean too much, until seeing the hidden "cone" surface.)

The first and reverse gears look really good. (I have seen some photos of a lot worse)

The PO said these came from school buses. Maybe the drivers were kind to the trannys.    These are both later models.

My current plan is to go the SM420 route. Now I need to decide if I need "rebuild" kit, or simply a "gasket" kit? (and the D300 adapter)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec. 2017 at 11:39am
Originally posted by JeepFever JeepFever wrote:

I pulled the top cover on the (2) SM420's I have, and everything looks to be in great shape. The syncros have sharp points. (that probably does not mean too much, until seeing the hidden "cone" surface.)

The first and reverse gears look really good. (I have seen some photos of a lot worse)

The PO said these came from school buses. Maybe the drivers were kind to the trannys.    These are both later models.

My current plan is to go the SM420 route. Now I need to decide if I need "rebuild" kit, or simply a "gasket" kit? (and the D300 adapter)

I've been following this thread since it's start. I suffered through the same process years ago! 

I went with the 420/300 combo behind my V6. I never regretted a single day with that combo. My gearing was 5:38. We did some serious trail work for better than a decade with that combo. You'll love it. 

If there are pitfalls - i would say A -  the 2-3 shift. The ratios between gears are pretty wide. So that 2-3 shift, I always felt had the motor falling flat. But other than that - it was great. B - the t-case does hang pretty low. But then again the trans is deep too. Just something to keep in mind. There are option to clock the t-case up. The circular pattern of the D300 lends itself to adjustability. You can get clocking rings for under $100

I had no driveshaft issues. Although i seem to remember going to a CV shaft in the rear and re-welding the perches in the axle to tilt the pinion up in line with the driveshaft. 

I'd have to measure. But I believe the spread between the centerline of the front and rear outputs are wider than the D18. This makes the trans bulge a non-issue. At least for me it was a non-issue. Note my motor was mounted offset to the passenger side by an inch or so. 

Pretty sure i would still be running that combo had I not gone V8, and had I not done some pre-running for KOH. I swapped to a very well built automatic for that task. For the record....i have all the parts for an L-head/420/D18 drivertrain for a future project.

Tip - we cut about 6 inches off the shifter cane - making it it a redneck short shifter. Ha. It actually worked and made changing gears feel like you weren't rowing a boat. 

Anyway - if you have any questions, I'll try to remember what i can for you! 


Edited by nofender - 03 Dec. 2017 at 11:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec. 2017 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by nofender nofender wrote:

......I had no driveshaft issues. Although i seem to remember going to a CV shaft in the rear and re-welding the perches in the axle to tilt the pinion up in line with the driveshaft.
Quote .........I'd have to measure. But I believe the spread between the centerline of the front and rear outputs are wider than the D18. This makes the trans bulge a non-issue......

I should have done more research before I started giving bad advise to Ron. . I didn’t realize that the D300 was longer between output shafts. That makes all the difference in the world. I see Novak’s clockable adapter is much shorter than the adapter for D18/20:

https://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/adapters/transmission-to-transfer-case/sm420-to/kit-423

.... inexpensive too that’s probably the way to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec. 2017 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

Originally posted by nofender nofender wrote:

......I had no driveshaft issues. Although i seem to remember going to a CV shaft in the rear and re-welding the perches in the axle to tilt the pinion up in line with the driveshaft.
Quote .........I'd have to measure. But I believe the spread between the centerline of the front and rear outputs are wider than the D18. This makes the trans bulge a non-issue......

I should have done more research before I started giving bad advise to Ron. . I didn’t realize that the D300 was longer between output shafts. That makes all the difference in the world. I see Novak’s clockable adapter is much shorter than the adapter for D18/20:

https://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/adapters/transmission-to-transfer-case/sm420-to/kit-423

.... inexpensive too that’s probably the way to go.

I've never seen you give bad advise! Wink

The bulge is a challenge for sure. I believe the slight difference in width and drop make all the difference. I'll see if i can dig up any pictures of me set up then....yeah....paper pictures. Ha. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec. 2017 at 3:33pm
Thanks guys for the input!

Using eyeball and tape measure method, both the D20 and D300 look to be same dimension, approx. 8.5", so I am not sure how Novak can make the adaptor shorter, unless by clocking.   The adapter has a few clocking options.

Certainly no bad advice has been given! Just opening up different options, sharing experiences, and helping to understand the whole picture. I am currently thinking the SM420 route simply because I already have the tranny, and the 420/300 combo does give a decent gear range compromise for how I use the Jeep.

And yes -> I was thinking that shifter-cane might need to be shortened. haha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec. 2017 at 6:40pm
I’d say a call from Novak is in order. Why is the D18 adapter over 4” long but the D300 adapter looks to be about 2” 3.2" long? When I was working on my adapter , there wasn’t any room for clocking even with a smaller u-joint and grinding the case. I seem to remember that if I move the TC back a couple inches it would allow some freedom. IDK.

Edit, (see strikes)

Edited by jpet - 04 Dec. 2017 at 4:11pm
CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
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