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Elmo

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Bridog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bridog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan. 2019 at 5:40pm
We are still making progress on Elmo’s frame. After aligning the frame rails with each other and welding on the rear bumper we fabricated a crossmember that is located about where the rear leaf spring hangers will be at. The crossmember kicks up to the rear floorboard height to allow more room for the driveshaft and exhaust. Then we turned our attention to building some mounts that will tie the back of the roll cage and body into the frame. We built these out of 2” square tubing with an 1/8” wall. Plates which are 1/4” thick and 4” square will sandwich the body. The top plate will be welded to the roll cage and the bottom plate is already welded to the 2” square tubing. Then last week we started working on tying the front of the rock sliders and roll cage mount into the frame. To do this we first cut and drilled some 1/4” plates. Then we sleeved the frame rails where the 1/4” plates bolt up for extra strength and so that we do not crush the frame rails when we tighten the bolts. This week we will cut/notch some more tubing and weld it between the rock slider and these plates. Here are a few pics taken along the way with more progress and pics coming soon. -Dylan









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan. 2019 at 6:00pm
That's looking really nice.


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'48 CJ2A Lefty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cj3bmutt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan. 2019 at 6:24pm
Looks good.  Enjoying the updates.  Can’t wait to see the finished 3B.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan. 2019 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by Bridog Bridog wrote:

.... Plates which are 1/4” thick and 4” square will sandwich the body. The top plate will be welded to the roll cage and the bottom plate is already welded to the 2” square tubing....

You might want to consider not having the top and bottom plates the same size.  When the sheet metal flexes around one plate as the chassis flexes it stresses the metal.  Then when it flexes the other way it bends around the other plate.  If the plate edges line up, the stresses are always in the same place and the reversing stresses will fatigue and possibly tear the metal eventually.  If the plates are different sizes the stress from flexing one way is in a different place from the stress flexing the other way, so the sheet metal will last quite a bit longer before fatigue would be an issue.
Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bridog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan. 2019 at 1:46am
Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

You might want to consider not having the top and bottom plates the same size... so the sheet metal will last quite a bit longer before fatigue would be an issue.


Thanks for bringing that up. I have heard this mentioned before, but I have been reluctant to buy in. The explanation you gave as to why such a failure could occur makes sense to me. I also understand in simple design terms about the stress being concentrated on the thin metal where it meets the plates. In our 20+ years of wheeling I just have not seen an issue where the body metal has failed around a pass through of a structural element done with equal sized plates. For that reason I question as to whether the magnitude and frequency of the metal bending back and forth at the edge of the plates is significant enough to cause the metal to failure prematurely. If failures have occurred I would be interested in knowing under what design and usage conditions the area was subject to and for how long.


At this point in the build it would be easy for us to make the top plates slightly larger and we are open to doing that. How much larger would you suggest if we decide to?     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbjeeps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan. 2019 at 2:14am
Awesome work Dylan, keep the updates coming!
1970 CJ5 Dauntless, 4.88 (His)
1948 CJ2A Dauntless, 3.54 (Hers)
1948 CJ2A "Targhee", yup, still under construction but getting closer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan. 2019 at 3:17am
Originally posted by Bridog Bridog wrote:

Thanks for bringing that up. I have heard this mentioned before, but I have been reluctant to buy in. The explanation you gave as to why such a failure could occur makes sense to me. I also understand in simple design terms about the stress being concentrated on the thin metal where it meets the plates. In our 20+ years of wheeling I just have not seen an issue where the body metal has failed around a pass through of a structural element done with equal sized plates. For that reason I question as to whether the magnitude and frequency of the metal bending back and forth at the edge of the plates is significant enough to cause the metal to failure prematurely. If failures have occurred I would be interested in knowing under what design and usage conditions the area was subject to and for how long.


At this point in the build it would be easy for us to make the top plates slightly larger and we are open to doing that. How much larger would you suggest if we decide to?     

I don't have any personal experience with that type of failure in this type of application in a vehicle.  I know the theory is valid though - I've seen how it plays out in other cases.

Where it would be particularly critical is if you were just mounting the roll bar to the sheet metal, using the backing plates to spread the load.  In that case fatigued metal compromises the roll bar mount.  Since your lower plate is attached to the frame, fatigued sheet metal won't affect the strength of the cage, so I don't think it's a safety risk here.  Still, who wants to tear sheet metal?  If it doesn't hurt anything I'd make the plates a little different sizes just to gain the safety factor on that.

As far as how much bigger, I'd think an extra 1/4" on each side would be plenty.  Even 1/8" might be all you'd need.  You're just trying to keep the stress from reversing in the same location.
Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepN95YJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan. 2019 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

Since your lower plate is attached to the frame, fatigued sheet metal won't affect the strength of the cage, so I don't think it's a safety risk here.


This.

I don't see any reason to worry about this at all.  These bodies are so small and your mounts are so close together I don't see any way that you could produce enough flexing of the material to ever cause this type of failure during the life of the vehicle.  

On a unibody vehicle or a desert race truck this might be an issue.  But I just don't see this becoming an issue on your jeep. (A very nice build, btw!) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AKoller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan. 2019 at 5:24pm
This thing is really looking good. I love seeing the progress. Keep the posts coming and keep up the good work Dillon and helpers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan. 2019 at 7:25pm
You say that frame is 11 gauge right ? 
So that means you have 1/8" of wall thickness.
When multiplied by 2 vertical walls that would roughly equal a channel frame having 1/4" of wall thickness.
Compared to the standard frame with only 3/16" of web (vertical wall) thickness.
I also think your not going to see enough frame flex to make the body mounting a real concern.
Besides that the body will be mounted to frame  using rubber .... right ?

 
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bridog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan. 2019 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

You say that frame is 11 gauge right ? 
So that means you have 1/8" of wall thickness.
When multiplied by 2 vertical walls that would roughly equal a channel frame having 1/4" of wall thickness.
Compared to the standard frame with only 3/16" of web (vertical wall) thickness.
I also think your not going to see enough frame flex to make the body mounting a real concern.
Besides that the body will be mounted to frame  using rubber .... right ?

 



Yes, the frame is constructed of 2x3 and 2x4 both with 11ga wall rectangle tubing. Hollow structures like round, square, and rectangle tubing also offer better torsional resistance than channel. The rollcage tied into the frame in at least 8 places should also add some rigidity. I would anticipate the body and frame flex would be a fraction of that of a stock 3B.   The body will be bolted directly to the frame...no rubber mounts. Dylan wants to enjoy all that Dauntless has to offer including the vibration
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan. 2019 at 8:30pm
I agree...Being tied into the roll cage will also eliminate a lot of frame flex.
Consider too that the overall tub will flex some too.

FWIW
I would add 1/8" of rubber on top/bottom to pad the tub sheet metal.
Otherwise the body will literally abrade itself thin from the friction due to any amount of lateral movement.


Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73 cj5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan. 2019 at 6:35am
Very nice work. I'm building a 55 3B with YJ springs SOA and shackle reversal. Everything will be stock except the brakes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bridog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb. 2019 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by 73 cj5 73 cj5 wrote:

Very nice work. I'm building a 55 3B with YJ springs SOA and shackle reversal. Everything will be stock except the brakes. 

Thanks!  We are sticking with the springs under the axles, but will be doing a shackle reversal on the front. We are still kicking around some ideas of how to build the front spring hangers to help deal with the much longer YJ springs. Do you have any pics of the front of yours?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73 cj5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb. 2019 at 9:33pm
I borrowed the design from another guy (with permission of course) and if you want I'll give you his  contact info. 
Here's where I'm at right now. I have some ways to go but this is about what it'll look like when done. Shackle mounts will be through the frame. Top plates are for my cage mounts. 




If I were to do it again I'd make the piece about an inch longer and have them cut on a cnc. Embarrassed


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote baja 4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2019 at 1:15pm
Anything lately Dylan?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Delmo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2019 at 2:02am
We have been making progress on Elmo in the last couple of months. The first thing we did was finish tying in the front of the rocksliders to the frame. This front mount will also be used as a roll cage mount that ties into the frame. The material used to do this is some leftover 2x3” tubing which we sectioned. The plate thickness for both the frame tie in and the roll cage mount is 1/4”.





The next thing we did was cut the floorboard and part of the firewall out. Then we used 3/16” flat iron to replace the piece of metal that makes the transition from the rear floorboard to the front floorboard. We cut and bent some body mounts out of 1/4” metal that we welded to the frame and the 3/16” flat iron. We drilled these mounts for a 3/4” bolt.



Next we made some rear spring hangers. We built them out of 1/4” steel. We made the front of the mount the same width as the frame and angled them out to accept the 2.5” wide YJ springs. The bottom of the spring hangers are angled and plated to allow them to slide over rocks with ease. Then we drilled and sleeved holes in the back of the frame for the shackles we made out of 5/16” steel. The shackles are boomerang shaped to clear the bumper.







The most recent thing we did was to make the spring hangers for the front. These are also 1/4” steel. After cutting and bending them we welded them onto the frame. Then we capped the front and the back of the mounts for strength and looks. The driver’s side mount we made longer and incorporated in a Saginaw steering box mount. We also drilled and sleeved the frame for front shackles that we still have to make.





In this time frame we also picked up a Dana 44 rear axle out of a Scout II. It has 4.10 gears and new Ten Factory shafts. There are no spider gears in it which is fine because we plan on using an ARB air locker. Next we will build a front bumper. We will try to post some pictures of that soon. -Dylan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2019 at 4:58pm
Well,
   I just perused-thru this build, and you have done an outstanding job of fabricating. Ha, I restored a '77 crewcab Ford pickup in 1996, (my last full body-off resto), and welded up 68 holes !   I thought that was too many, until I got to reading through this. 200+ !
   I do like your "rock-sliders" which for the Rubicon, they sure are handy to save sheet metal damage.   Of my 18-summers traveling the Rubicon jeep trail, I don't recall ever seeing such a Trick pair.   I like having something "different" and what I mean by that is something hand-made and not something purchased off-the-shelf.   
   On the discussion of the roll bar plates-to-body-to-support plates, I agree with Ken, (oldtimer) that myself, I would also go with some rubber matting to alleviate the metal-to-metal condition and to help seal-out water from seeping through to the inside.   As if it matters _ _ right !   hahahaa

    My first thought when you guys were discussing the sandwiching issue, I agree that you won't be experiencing much frame twist, although that depends.

    When Ken mentioned welding "Spatter" I want to share this:
   My mig welder is a Linde 225 mig-master I bought new 35+ years ago. With the argon-mix gas it welds smooth-as-silk. But using .035 wire on thin sheet metal is tough. When I bought it I pushed .030 wire through the .035 liner, and experienced multiple feed-roll ball-ups. I never did purchase an .030 liner, BUT i'd better put that on my bucket-list.   chortle !
    For convenience, I have been suffering through numerous welding projects with my little Lincoln 110 mig which operates on 110v and I also am running .035 wire with flux-core to be able to weld outside the shop in the wind.
Talk about SPATTER !!!   I cuss everytime I use the Lincoln 110 mig because of the spatter.   So, I waltzed into the local welding shop, and complained, and the salesman Grinned, and said "Live with it, that is how it is with those when running Flux-core wire" !    So, I got no sympathy but I got to cry on his shoulder and get it off my chest.   Little good it did.
   There is nothing better than working with new steel which is nice and clean.

    I like rubber spring bushings because they Flex, and stay in place better than those Slick Poly bushing, which IMO are just too Stiff and Slick, and try to Spit-Out of the bushing housings when really twisted, then they tear too.

    Do ya think you have a few hours in running weld-beads ! one-or-two hahaha

    That 3B ain't gonna be a Trailer-Queen that's for Sure.   Nice work

    My projects similar to this came to a screeching-halt when I took a state job for a 20-year window, and up-rooted my family and moved. I am now 2-years retired, and just did get myself a 220v outlet to once again use that Linde 225 and with the argon-mix, no Spatter !   Now, once again, I may begin laying beads and burning stuff together producing smooth welds like yours.
    I sure missed it for too long.

    Question: in case I missed it. What Color will the body be. then what Color for the roll-bar and accessories ?
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