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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dasvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2023 at 9:57pm
No problem.  Yeah, those mid-60's Falcons are super cool. 289 4-speed.... Fun rides
1947 CJ2A #88659 "Rat Patrol"
1953 CJ3A #453-GB1 11266 "Black Beauty"
1964 Thunderbird convertible
..... & one of them moves under it's own power!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 June 2023 at 2:57pm
Just got an email that Econo NW will be on June 25th, held at a Les Schwab located at 2410 SE 122nd Ave. in Portland. If you dig these old boxes like I do, come check 'em out.
47 CJ2A w/fuel injected boat engine
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64 Ford Econoline Travelwagon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2023 at 6:45pm

Econo Northwest 2023


As a most pleasant change of pace, it wasn't triple digit temps and was an enjoyable upper 70s day for the van show. There were around 35 vintage vans in attendance (mostly Econolines), some from Canada, and others from the far reaches of neighboring Washington. I’m told this is the largest Econoline event in the country with 49 as the highest number of vans total to show up- the organizers are shooting for 50 and encouraged any and all to show whether under their own power or not.





This one is being prepped as a 24 Hours of LeMons racer with late model Lincoln running gear & chassis.


A somewhat rare see-through model known as an “Eight door”.


I talked with a van owner that has the same overdrive transmission as I do installed in his van, so now I’m encouraged to revisit that project.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2023 at 7:25pm
Great project Rob!

 
We (family of 7) did a Maine to Nevada and points between and back one summer in a van when I was 8 in 1967. Saw lots of things a kid will always remember, like buffalos, grizzly bears and hippies. None of those in Northern Maine in '67 (that I knew about anyway).

They were building out the interstate highway system back then. I still remember the giant earth movers ramming around like it better get done TODAY!.






Edited by jhg - 27 June 2023 at 7:30pm
1948 cj2a. Rebuilt L-head, steering, T90, WO 636, steering, brake lines. So far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2023 at 11:53pm

Jhg, there was a first gen Chevy like in your photo at the show and it was a very nice no-door panel (no doors on either side, just rear doors), probably wouldn’t give the best visual experience for a scenic trip. I’ll bet that was memorable!


After I got back from ECNW, I tore into the van and removed the original transmission. I’ve done this a few times now and it didn’t take very long- plus it’s easy. I plugged the T85N back in like before and added the plywood disc and the jeep pressure plate to the yoke. Everything but the driveshaft was reassembled and then we tested her out!




It seems to work properly now and it will shift in and out of overdrive! I reconnected the switch to the solenoid and then started the van out in third gear holding the rpms at 1500. I made a little video of this and if you watch the speedo and the tach, direct drive is about 42 mph and in OD, it’s about a solid 50 mph. If you listen closely, you might be able to detect the switch make an audible click. It’s not an instant shift because you have to let off the gas and unload the drivetrain, but it’s clearly working now. This is great news!



Disregard the current rpm:speedo readings as the speedometer is way off, it’s about a good 20 mph optimistic. I’ll need to correct this with the correct speedo gear. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2023 at 7:21pm

With a little research, I was able to find alternate speedo drive (driven?) gears. The van has a 19T plastic cog at the end of the cable and there are 20T and 21T versions, so I’ll try some of those- a lot of old Fords use the same gear. I thought the spiral gear on the output shafts were the variable causing the error, but when I wasted half a day taking the rear housings on both transmissions apart it turned out they were the same.


I’m mocking up a transmission cross member and for a change, the fabrication gods have smiled upon me. The mount lines up very well with a cross member of the unibody structure so I’ll get some 2.5” rectangular tubing and make a simple connection from the gearbox to the “frame” after it gets reinforced a bit. The T85 weighs a good bit more than the little 3 speed does, and I don’t want this to fall out on the highway. There was a van at the get together with this transmission installed by using the original hanging mount, but I don’t feel that would be strong enough. 




The unibody structure will be reinforced with some ⅛” metal from an electrical box in the scrap pile. I went out to get the box and it was full of bees! Of course there were bees! Another day.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2023 at 4:56pm

After dispatching the resident bees, I cut out some metal from the control box to support the cross member and stitch welded it in, with some sleeves for the bolts. Then fabricated the cradle for the transmission. 




The cross members and frame rails are galvanized, so that had to be ground off so it would weld nicely. There is also an undercoating of sorts sprayed under the van, and it’s a waxy, greasy substance with a low melting point! This needs to be removed anywhere welding will take place because melting happens. I’m grateful for this stuff because it has preserved the van, but it’s a mess to work around. 


I added a street el to the fill port on the overdrive to try and increase the oil capacity. The OD and the transmission have separate fill and drain plugs, but I only see one vent. I’ve read differing opinions on whether the OD and the gearbox share oil. There is an interesting  statement in a Borg Warner publication about the oil that is to be used in this transmission; and that is GL-1 mineral oil- it specifies it in bolded all cap letters, but does say that a good quality 40W or 50W motor oil could be used. Definitely not a hypoid type gear oil.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2023 at 12:07am

The transmission is in for good now (hopefully). Needed to re-engineer the parking brake to work around the gearbox.



Next will be the wiring; I have the original wire harness with the relay and kick down switch. The wires are too short to reach so they’ll need to be extended to go waaay back there.





x


Edited by otto - 19 July 2023 at 12:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2023 at 8:46pm

I found a pathway for the wires to go back to the transmission and a handy spot for the kick-down switch. After a little modification, it’s attached to the core support with a little foot clamped to the throttle linkage that will push the plunger when the gas pedal is on the mat. Wires to the solenoid and governor were simple: just extend them to reach.




The kick-down switch may not be fully functional for a while, as when this system is triggered by the throttle linkage, it grounds the points side of the ignition coil momentarily to clip power while the transmission shifts from OD to direct drive under power. It seems a great feature to have, so I’ll try to retain it. The van has electronic ignition and I’m told electronic modules don’t take kindly to being grounded repeatedly. 


When I was researching distributors for my jeep, I discovered that Mercury Marine uses an electronic ignition that interrupts power momentarily when shifting a boat from forward to reverse so maybe that’s an option.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug. 2023 at 7:50pm

The driveshaft needed to be shortened about 9” and required a different U-joint to match the transmission’s yoke. The T85N uses the same U-joint our jeeps use, but the van’s U-joints are among the smallest I’ve seen on a domestic vehicle- they remind me of the joints my vintage Datsuns had (and may still be smaller). It’s a good thing we’re not adding any more power here as this would likely be the “fuse” in the drivetrain.



The T85N is fully installed and operational; I tried it out on jackstands last night. Good news is that it works like it should. The original wiring operates the features correctly, even the stock, vintage relay. It’s fun to speed the rear wheels up in third gear, let off, and it will shift into overdrive. Let off the gas until the wheels slow down and it will shift back into direct drive- no clutch required.

I’ve heard people rave about how easy these transmissions are to drive and I can’t wait to try it out on the road, but I hear a noise that concerns me- it may be the rear axle. The bad news is the rear transmission yoke is very warm after a short run with no load operating on the stands. This bothers me quite a bit- not sure what to do yet.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote muley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug. 2023 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by otto otto wrote:



This bothers me quite a bit- not sure what to do yet.



As it probably should Rob, BUT: you found a potential problem. while on jackstands. not on road.Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug. 2023 at 6:41pm

When the van was running on the jackstands the other day, I noticed the rear wheels had a bit of wobble to them. The wheels aren’t hub-centric and just locate with tapered lugnuts like the stock wheels did. Today I ran the van with the wheels and brake drums removed and watched the axle flanges move around; the passenger side especially. So the van has a couple of bent axles- that was disappointing. Unhappy


For a while now, I’ve thought about an upgrade using the rear axle from a late 90s Ford Explorer, where I’d get disc brakes, factory sway bar, the same wheel bolt pattern and commonly, a limited slip differential in one package. Then I’d need disc brakes up front and a different master cylinder and it would just snowball from there…




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug. 2023 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by muley muley wrote:

Originally posted by otto otto wrote:



This bothers me quite a bit- not sure what to do yet.



As it probably should Rob, BUT: you found a potential problem. while on jackstands. not on road.Thumbs Up
Yes, a silver lining- sort of. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug. 2023 at 7:38pm

Today I spent a bit of time troubleshooting the van’s drivetrain sounds and arrived at a couple of conclusions: the rear axle is toast! And the transmission will be coming out.


The axle sounds like a rock tumbler and has at least one bent axle, so the plan is to replace it with an upgrade to the Explorer axle I mentioned earlier. The quick and easy replacement would be an early Explorer axle that has the same 10” drums the van has, but for that much work it just doesn’t feel like much of an upgrade. So I’m feeling like the late 90s version w/disc brakes seems justified. The van has the light duty axle now with the 7.25” ring gear so no big loss in tossing it.


I ran the van on stands today and the yoke still gets warmer than I think it should. I got under the van while it was in 3rd OD and watched the yoke move fore/aft a bit when working the throttle. It didn’t seem to do this as much in direct drive so maybe it’s an OD issue. My floor jack got a rebuild in anticipation of taking the van off the stands but it’s going to be staying on them- I’ll still need it to remove the transmission. And then I’ll start some learnin’ about rebuilding 3 speed overdrive transmissions.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drm101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2023 at 8:10am
Love your van, and the work you do. Thanks for keeping us up on your progress. 
One thing to consider is that the 9" has easy to find and super cheap gear sets. I have bought 2 used gear sets for my Nova for less than $50. I thought a 2.75 would be right, but then found a 3.00 that is perfect. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug. 2023 at 11:30pm

Yes, the 9 inch would be an easy rebuild- and if I had one, I’d do it-but I don’t have one. The Ford 8.8 is like the new 9 inch, in that it has lots of aftermarket support. Most any gear ratio you might want is available and all manner of traction aids are out there. Reported to be super strong even though my power plant wouldn’t even bruise one. 


While I was playing around yesterday, I tried some things that I’ve read about. When the speed drops to the point that the governor disengages the OD (about 25 mph), the transmission “free wheels” and you can shift from 3rd to 2nd without the clutch and it goes right into gear without grinding at all. You can also shift from 2nd to unsynchronized 1st while moving with just a minimal ratcheting of the gears- kind of like when shifting from neutral to reverse. Wild.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug. 2023 at 4:22pm

Well, I couldn’t stand it any longer and took the van for a short drive to the grocery early this morning, and it was awesome! I pulled out onto the road, shifted into second, got up to 35-40 mph and when letting off the gas, it shifted into OD promptly, smoothly and silently. Got the van up to where it previously topped out in 3rd and then shifted into 3rd OD.

The van was crying out for additional gearing and now it has some. It cruises down the road so much smoother now. The speedometer is still a bit off, but the van is traveling at a faster rate with lower RPM.


Slow down for a corner and it downshifts for you when lifting off the accelerator, speed up and let off and it will shift up for you. Coasting towards a red light, I could move the shifter into second gear without pressing the clutch pedal, and also into first gear too. Just need to push in the clutch before you come to a stop- easy.


I don’t know who designed all these features into a car’s transmission, but it’s absolutely genius! The automatic up/down shifting, the kick-down feature, the no-clutch shifting all date back to the 1930s and 40s- it’s amazing.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep. 2023 at 8:54pm

I went junkyarding today, mostly on a recon mission armed with a tape measure. I learned a few things today and one of them is that my memory is not as vivid as I thought. Turns out Ford Explorers have the axle on top of the leaf springs while my van’s axle is under the springs. This would interfere with the calipers on a disc brake axle. That was disappointing. 


I then focused on the drum brake axles the older vehicles have. The Explorer axle is almost two inches narrower overall than the van’s axle- I thought this could be easily solved with spacers. I then measured for where the spring pads would need to be relocated to and it turns out the springs would be almost right up against the backing plates. This appears like it could be done, but would make bleeding brakes a pain. The Explorer’s rear sway bar attaches to the frame behind the axle- this is where the van’s gas tank resides, so that won't work either.  


Axles from full size trucks and vans are too wide altogether and would require a lot of narrowing and dollars spent. I’ll just have to keep researching.


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64 Ford Econoline Travelwagon
If you can't get there in a Jeep, get a motorcycle!
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