Trouble Driving in Valve Guides |
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Ranger42
Member Joined: 06 Sep. 2011 Location: Gustavus Alaksa Status: Offline Points: 41 |
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Posted: 18 Jan. 2019 at 8:25pm |
I successfully extracted all 8 valve guides using a puller made along the lines of Jeeper50's / Roger S. design. I used a length of grade 8, 3/8th threaded rod, two grade 8 nuts, two grade 5 nuts, two sockets, and a thin square of plywood to protect the block. They all came out pretty easily (with some elbow grease) much to my surprise. I even, made a shortened version of the puller to get cylinder 4's exhaust valve out without moving the engine.
I’ve run into some trouble driving in the new ones. I cleaned up the bore thoroughly with solvent and a bore mop, took the valve guide out of the freezer where it had been chilled to about -5 deg F, then used the piloted valve guide install punch I ordered with the valve cutter supplies. It went in well to a point. I was trying to move it down the last 0.1 inch too get the magic 1" level for exhaust guide and CRACK! The top of the valve guide broke. So here’s some questions: A) Should I lubricate the bore before driving in the guide? I’ve seen nothing recommending this in any of the manuals, etc. I’m not keen on the idea of lubing the bore, because I don’t want the guide to become loose at temperature when the engine is running B) I’ve read some about heating the head (or in this case the block) as well as chilling the guides to make for easier install. The trouble is it’s 16 deg F out in our barn were the jeep is, so heating the block is not likely. I thought about warming it slightly with a MAP gas torch, but with how cold the block is, I don’t want to risk heating one bore with the rest of the block cold and the block cracking So what do you think? Lube or no? Heat or no? Or just drive in the next guide and maybe it was a bad guide casting that broke the first time? |
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1950 CJ3A w/1945 MB Engine
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WeeWilly
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 07 May 2009 Location: Clayton IN Status: Offline Points: 3423 |
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Did you measure the bore and the guides? The guides might be to large and need to be grind down a little or get another set. I don't have my machinist manual with me but I would guess that the guides should only be about .001 over size. Jim
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47 CJ2A (Ranch Hand) 48 CJ2A, 48 Willys truck, T3C 3782, M274 (Military Mule)
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Joe DeYoung
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Madison WI Status: Offline Points: 3358 |
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1st - measure the bore and the guide ( if you are able) to see how much interference you have. If more than .001 or maybe .0015 then that explains your problem.
2nd - Heating and cooling are not likely to help you very much as you can't get enough of a differential in temp for that small of a diameter to get it installed before it expands back to size. That happens very quickly!! You're more likely to just get it crooked in the bore and have real problems. You should be able to just press it to depth. I'm reluctant to say pound it to depth with a hammer and dowel but it's more than a light tap. It should take a pretty good 'WAP' without beating the crap out of it. I use a dowel with a shoulder on it so that I know when I'm to the correct depth. Lubrication would be helpful to prevent galling.
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Joe DeYoung
to many jeeps, parts, and accessories to list here, but apparently enough to keep me in trouble with my wife. |
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Joe DeYoung
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Madison WI Status: Offline Points: 3358 |
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Ha Jim... you type 1 min faster than me
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Joe DeYoung
to many jeeps, parts, and accessories to list here, but apparently enough to keep me in trouble with my wife. |
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Mike F
Member Joined: 12 Aug. 2018 Location: Longview wa Status: Offline Points: 684 |
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If the block is 17 degrees and the guide is -5. Then you only have a difference of 22 degrees. This would be like cooling the guide to 48 in a normal 70 degree shop environment. Thermal coefficients of expansion are constant. So in a normal setting with the block at 70 and the guide at -5 you would have almost 3.5 times the shrink. Assuming the relationship is linear
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DonH
Member Joined: 13 Feb. 2006 Location: Central Massachusetts USA Status: Offline Points: 132 |
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Perhaps its the quality of the guides. I obtained mine from an online vendor with results similar to your experience. I than purchased Federal Mogul guides from NAPA and they installed with no problem. I oiled the bore and installed at room temperature, temperature determined by cranky propane heater on very cold day, maybe 45 degrees. DonH
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1946CJ2A
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WeeWilly
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 07 May 2009 Location: Clayton IN Status: Offline Points: 3423 |
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I would advise against heating the block and chilling the guides and driving them in, that would put a lot of stress on the bores of the block when the temp equalized. Jim
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47 CJ2A (Ranch Hand) 48 CJ2A, 48 Willys truck, T3C 3782, M274 (Military Mule)
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Bruce W
Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9649 |
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Did the top of the guide have a recess in it, or did your install tool try to go inside it? Or both? Does the tool have a good square shoulder on it, and a major diameter as large as or greater than the guide? I have installed them with block and guide both at ambient temp, and I have put the guides in the freezer on a 90* day, and never really noticed any difference. BW
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It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
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cpt logger
Member Joined: 23 Sep. 2012 Location: Western Colorad Status: Offline Points: 3040 |
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One of your problems is the block temperature. If you can figure out a way to heat the jeep up, it would help a lot. Was the driver at room temperature, or at -5? If at room temperature,
the driver warmed up the guide before you even got the guide into the
block. This is not a major issue if room temperature is 70+. I have in the past used plastic to make a booth, much like a paint booth, & heated it with a kerosene heater. It worked fairly well. However, carbon monoxide can be an issue if the booth is not vented properly. Be very careful about this, installing valve guides is not worth dying for. You could heat the booth up letting the Jeep soak in the heat, for at least 45 minutes. Then vent the booth well before entering it to install the valve guides. The jeep will not cool off too fast for this to work. The block has enough mass to retain the heat for a while, 20 minutes or so, plenty of time. I also favor a good name brand on my engine parts. IHTH, Cpt Logger. |
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usmcpmi
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 01 Mar. 2006 Location: Elgin,Texas Status: Offline Points: 878 |
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I agree that the block temp needs to be higher. I haven't replaced valve guides, but I have re sleeved several engines. I took a simple heat lamp and set it up on each side of the block and covered it with a tarp for a day or so...put the sleeves in the deep freeze for a day or so, then put it back together. The lamps allow the entire block to warm up evenly to around 100*
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'48 CJ2A/192948
'15 Wrangler Rubicon Mark G. |
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Ranger42
Member Joined: 06 Sep. 2011 Location: Gustavus Alaksa Status: Offline Points: 41 |
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Wow. Thanks for all the great input. I do not have a bore gauge large enough to check the bore ID versus the guide OD (only a small bore set for checking the inside of the guide). I may invest in one.
The driver I have has a very short shoulder. I plan on adding some 3/8 washers for the next one I try to spread the load further. Also, these are probably Omix Ada manufacture. I did find Sealed Power guides on NAPA. I think they are a subsidiary of Federal-Mogul. Does anyone know if Sealed Power parts are US made? Lastly, I like the heatlamp idea. I have one left over from raising chicks a few years back. I'm sure I can get the temp difference up to more like -5 to + 80 F.
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1950 CJ3A w/1945 MB Engine
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otto
Member Joined: 26 Feb. 2012 Location: Orygun Status: Offline Points: 2264 |
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Sealed Power parts are made all around the world. The SP valves I bought for my jeep were made in South Africa.
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47 CJ2A w/fuel injected boat engine
48 CJ2A 64 Ford Econoline Travelwagon If you can't get there in a Jeep, get a motorcycle! |
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Mark W.
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 09 Nov. 2014 Location: Silverton, OR Status: Offline Points: 7980 |
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I would venture like I think Bruce also does the short shoulder on the driver broke down and acted as a wedge to splay open the top of the guide. Not so much the quality of the guide failing. Hard steel is also brittle and the guide was not designed to handle the type of force the driver created. IMHO
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Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized 1949 3A W/S 1957 CJ5 Frame Modified Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962 |
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JeepSaffer
Member Joined: 26 Sep. 2014 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 1181 |
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There is no reason why a lubed up bore and guide will suddenly become loose at operating temps. If it were to happen, this would be a function of the temp of the block and guide, not the lube. In any case, both guide and block heat up to equal temp during operating, so the guide is not going to somehow heat up less and fall out of the block. Go ahead and lube. You will exponentially decrease the friction between the guide and block, and hence the resistance to drive it in. Have you ever tried a "slip n slide" without any water on the plastic?
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1948 CJ2A #204853 in South Africa
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JeepSaffer
Member Joined: 26 Sep. 2014 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 1181 |
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Just to add....
The force needed to overcome friction is proportional to the surface area of the connecting surfaces. So as the guide moves further into the bore the force needed to overcome friction will increase. If you succeeded in driving the guide in all the way except for the last 1/8" without any lubricant, then i hate to say it but you would easily have driven it all the way with a little lubricant. No need to change your guide supplier or your driver or your methods. A little pre lube should do the trick for you.
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1948 CJ2A #204853 in South Africa
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Unkamonkey
Member Joined: 23 Mar. 2016 Location: Greeley CO Status: Offline Points: 2093 |
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Generally, valve guides are not a big deal. A friend wanted me to go do some on an old Case diesel crawler. OK. Old valve guides are gone. Should have been the first clue. I grabbed a new guide and set it in place. Slid down and landed on the cam. We have problems here that I can't deal with. I just called him and told him he needs a new motor.
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uncamonkey
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usmcpmi
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 01 Mar. 2006 Location: Elgin,Texas Status: Offline Points: 878 |
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Do you still have the old guides? Put a caliper on the old one, then measure the new ones and see what the difference is between the 2...
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'48 CJ2A/192948
'15 Wrangler Rubicon Mark G. |
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jeeper50
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 01 Mar. 2008 Location: Spanish Fort AL Status: Offline Points: 2579 |
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X2 I used guides from rockauto Sealed Power brand P/n VG338 and VG130 about $3 each, post a pic of your driver. Looking at your pic, looks like your driver may not have large enough shoulder and it damaged the top of your guide enough to become a wedge that caused the guide to crack as it tried to push the guide down. Edited by jeeper50 - 19 Jan. 2019 at 3:33pm |
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Belleview ol skool winch soon. '48 CJ2A 283 V8 sm 420 granny low, tera low D18, overdrive,lockers Texan at heart,Alabama by retirement |
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