Oil Leak |
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Lhead
Member Joined: 02 Mar. 2018 Location: Valley Ctr CA Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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I pulled the pan and rear main cap. Not without incident of course, in prying the pan away from the block it finally gave way and immediately flipped upside down. I had drained the oil but there must have been at least a couple more gallons in the pan. Imagine the mess. The first observation was that one of the two rubber vertical bearing cap seals fell out. Not enough RTV I guess. I was wrong about the type of seal I had even though I'm the one who installed it. You can see in the photo that it is different than the one standing beside it.
Looking up at the crankshaft, the seal surface looks pretty good and you can see the rubber seal still in place. At this point, I'm starting to believe the problem might have been the round seals that go between the cap and the block as the main seal looks pretty good. I should have new seals arriving from Walcks today. I'll see what type they are. Any suggestions? Thanks, Larry...
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Lhead
Member Joined: 02 Mar. 2018 Location: Valley Ctr CA Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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WillyT, to your point, the type of seal installed is almost like a rubber version of the rope seal, e.g. it didn't really have a lip (like the free standing one in the pic), but rather made contact with the crankshaft across a wider area, like 1/4". Another observation, when I took the seal out of the cap, there was a lot of oil around, under, and behind the seal. Makes me thing oil was going around the seal to block/cap area. I didn't use any sealant in there so that may explain the leak.
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willyt
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 31 July 2018 Location: Seneca,SC Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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I will be starting the engine this evening to see if my reinstall of the seal holds. This will be my third attempt. On install #2 I may have not used enough sealant on the packing rods, the bearing cap dropped as soon as the bolts were loosened. So a bit more sealant used this time.
If this reinstall fails I'm open to another type of seal. Right now I'm not considering a rope seal. If the Best seal is no.1, according to the parts counters people, I wonder who is no.2?
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1952 CJ3A (Lil'Green)
early M38A1(Ole Green) 1970 Jeepster Commando |
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Lhead
Member Joined: 02 Mar. 2018 Location: Valley Ctr CA Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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I got the new seal kit from Walcks yesterday and the neoprene seal has a pronounced lip in the front for sealing. However, I can easily slip the new seal into and out of the space between the block and the crank leading me to the conclusion that it would never seal properly. The old one came out pretty easily too. The best measurement I can get without a different set of calipers is about 2.307" which falls into the acceptable range of 3.02-3.12 but that measurement is suspect due to improper tools. The crank is too deep into the block to get a highly accurate measurement with normal calipers. I guess my next move is to try a rope seal.
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mbullism
Member Sponsor Member x 4 Joined: 29 May 2015 Location: MA Status: Offline Points: 4783 |
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. Ummm...
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Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it... Welcome to 1930's Germany
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Lhead
Member Joined: 02 Mar. 2018 Location: Valley Ctr CA Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Duh!!! I guess I should read my own posts before posting! My measurement was 3.37 which is obviously bogus too, so I'll give up on the measurement technique since I don't have to proper tool. I'm beginning to agree with whoever said the only good way to fix the rear main seal is to remove the engine. I'm on my last attempt with engine in place. If that doesn't work, then out it comes.
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Lhead
Member Joined: 02 Mar. 2018 Location: Valley Ctr CA Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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It's all back together. I ended up using the rubber seal standing beside the main cap in the first picture. There was no way I was going to get a rope seal up and around the crankshaft without dropping it. The new seal from Walck's slipped in and out too easily so I knew it wouldn't seal. The one I used fit pretty well. I coated it with RTV and got it in place. I've only driven about 4 miles and so far only have very minor drips, about dime size compared to dinner plate size before. The real test will be a longer drive when it stops raining. Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
Larry...
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Larry
46 CJ2A L134 33 Ford Merc Flathead |
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willyt
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 31 July 2018 Location: Seneca,SC Status: Offline Points: 517 |
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Luck to ya. Hope it goes well.
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1952 CJ3A (Lil'Green)
early M38A1(Ole Green) 1970 Jeepster Commando |
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Lhead
Member Joined: 02 Mar. 2018 Location: Valley Ctr CA Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Well, I finally got a decent long ride, about 15 miles. It leaked same as before. Ugh! Nice fresh oil in a big puddle the size of a saucer. Same when I came home. I guess I've reached the point where I pull the engine and crankshaft and start over. I really hate to do that since the engine runs so well. It seems to have plenty of power (relatively speaking) and easily runs at close to 50 mph.
I guess I'll take the crankshaft to a machine shop to have the rear main seal surface cleaned up while I have it out. Is there any other possible leak points on the real of the block into the bell housing? I just find it hard to believe a main seal can leak that much having just been replaced. Thanks,
Larry... |
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67charger
Member Joined: 27 Sep. 2011 Location: Kentucky Status: Offline Points: 1272 |
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Your post before the last said you coated the seal with rtv? Do you mean you coated the actual rubber lip part in rtv silicone? This could be your problem, the only thing that should be on a seal is oil, vasoline, or bearing grease.
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Lhead
Member Joined: 02 Mar. 2018 Location: Valley Ctr CA Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Well, I coated the outside of the seal with RTV, not the inside lip. BUT, like Rick Stivers said somewhere in his video series on rebuilding a T90, "RTV seems to go everywhere but where you want it to go". So there is no guarantee that some didn't find its way onto the lip part of the seal. Especially since you can't see anything once you start to work the seal over the top of the crankshaft. I'm thinking I'll go back with a rope seal but I'll have to see how things look when I blow it all apart. I'm going to live with the puddles for awhile so I can get some driving time in. I wish I could put a diaper on it! Ha Ha!
Larry...
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Thad
Member Joined: 05 Jan. 2017 Location: Nobleboro Me Status: Offline Points: 205 |
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I posted earlier that I had my crank where the rear mail seal rides built up and then turned to 2.311. It is now back in the jeep and no leaks with about an hour on the motor. I did use Walcks neoprene seal. Hope this will be the answer for you.
Thad
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Life is short. Buy a jeep
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Lhead
Member Joined: 02 Mar. 2018 Location: Valley Ctr CA Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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Thanks Thad, I'm happy that your fix worked. I'm at the point that I believe I'll have to do something like what you did. What I think I'll do is build up another engine and swap. Then I'll have the leaker fixed for a future project.
Larry...
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scottpagesr
Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2020 Location: Columbia, SC Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Got a CJ3A and had trouble finding info on the rear seal (2 piece neoprene). Things got confusing because I have not seen manufacturer installation information on any seals and it turns out there are several kinds of seals out there, so it in not just a 2 piece neoprene; it is a specific model/type of neoprene seal. See my picture below, hopefully you won't have to re-invent the wheel and you will be successful. Please feel free to comment. I have done some "massaging" on this picture, hopefully to eliminate questions.
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Another Day Closer
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oldscot3
Member Joined: 22 Oct. 2019 Location: texas Status: Offline Points: 545 |
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There is a Youtube channel under the name "Metalshaper" that has vids discussing this issue extensively. Brian says the neoprene Best seals are manufactured to an incorrect spec and won't ever seal properly on a stock Willys crank. He has his cranks welded up on the seal journal and then turned back down to a dimension that works for the neoprene seals, otherwise he uses a rope seal and shows how to install them to best effect. Very interesting vids, should be easy to look up.
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James 4:6 God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
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misterberry
Member Joined: 27 Jan. 2006 Location: Edmonton Canada Status: Offline Points: 683 |
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This is a very interetsting thread. Been debated many places - many posts.
Ai too had same problems and ended up with neoprene in my rebuilt. I installed an oilpan that was powder coated in an un-educated thinking that i was doing something good. Opened the sump to correct the oil float hang up condition i developed. In the sump were remnants of the now peeled interior coating. To correct my leak - i bought new neoprene ones. While i thought the oil issue was cured- it never stopped. So- i had it changed Still had not figured out the idiot owner was issue. After a while -i bought decent new rope scales kits . Buying two , it gave me hope . I did install one set . Only thing i missed was soaking the crap out of thr rope longer than what I did . Needs a LONG time - not an hour or 24. Since the time spent on this in the beginning- i have come across an advisory from the american machinists authority which takes recurring problems in machine shops and corrects the issue. I have a copy some where on a drive that i must locate. Perhaps someone who is a longtime member can check their cranium and add it to this thread . I will still looking. Then it will be good .
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James Berry
'48 2A ser.187593 "Jeep Jeep" It's a "Lefty".... Moved north from California- Now waving the Canadian flag - A Canuck back home in Edmonton |
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