|
|
|
Overdrive |
Post Reply 
|
Page 12> |
| Author | ||
Bruce W 
Member 
Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9651 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Topic: OverdrivePosted: 07 Feb. 2020 at 3:57am |
|
|
I decided that before I split the transmission/transfer case pair that I put together to check the mesh of the 26/29 tooth gears, I would try the 26-tooth OD bowl gear in it. It fit like a champ. Slid right in, fit with a tiny bit of backlash, turned several revolutions with no resistance or noise, and slid right back out again. Quite unlike it did in the case in the jeep. More evidence that the intermediate gear with the pointy teeth is the problem. Now I can unbolt this pair and store them away. When I get some other projects out of the way, I will go through this transmission and freshen it up, same with this transfer case, and I will install the overdrive on this pair. Eventually, they may wind up in Uncle Lynden's jeep after all. BW
|
||
|
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
||
 |
||
|
oldtime
Member 
Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Online Points: 4184 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Feb. 2020 at 4:25pm |
|
That confirms exactly what I would expect to occur and I also expect those 2 TC input gear diameter to be slightly different.
I seriously doubt that. IMHO Dana Spicer quality control is far better than that I fully suspect Dana Spicer did not make the offending intermediate gear. I expect the gear in Uncle Lynden's CJ2-A. to be an aftermarket replacement intermediate gear. Bruce, I fully commend you on your attempts to pursue these yet uncharted realms of Model 18 interchanges ! |
||
|
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
||
|
||
|
Bruce W
Member
Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9651 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Feb. 2020 at 3:12am |
|
 I got some answers today, but it seems that the more answers I get, the more questions I have. I located a spare 26-tooth input gear and a 29-tooth version of the same and tried them for fit with the rusty int. gear shown in picture #2. The 29-tooth gear meshed up and fit like it belonged there, but the 26-tooth, while meshing, didn't feel good and seemed to not want to align properly. But this is on the bench or held in my hands. I decided I needed to check them in a transfer case, where everything would be held in it's proper location and orientation. I didn't have a spare transmission/transfer case unit lying about, so I had to bolt a couple together. The transfer case I used is one of those that I took pictures of showing the blunt teeth on the intermediate gear. All of my spare t-cases are of the 1-1/8 shaft, 26-tooth gear versions. Here's what I found: A 26-tooth drive gear slips in like it knows where it's going and it wants to be there. Slides right in, meshes well, turns well, and has a tiny bit of backlash like you would expect. The 29-tooth gear slides onto the shaft until the teeth just begin to mesh, then everything stops. It won't go any further, and any attempt to turn the shaft or gears is met with a great amount of resistance. Even after only a bit of fooling around, an attempt to remove the gear was also met with resistance. So now we know for sure. The two are not interchangeable. Accidental mixing of these gears between the "early" and "late" versions is impossible. (I suppose Bubba could, with a big enough hammer, drive the two together.) I'd say it stands to reason that if the late, 29-tooth gear will not work with an intermediate gear of the early type, then the opposite should be true, the early 26-tooth gear will not be able to be installed with a late intermediate gear. There's no doubt that the input gear in my case is a 26-tooth version, it's labeled as such, and I'm very careful about counting gear teeth. Even if one missed a tooth or counted one twice, there's enough difference between 26 and 29 that a mistake should be hard to make. (Watch out though, the MB/GPW transfer case uses a 27-tooth gear.) And I counted the teeth on the output gear during assembly to be sure, twice as I usually do, and it is 26 also. This input gear slid right in and meshes well. So what I think I have is a replacement intermediate gear for a 2.43:1 transfer case, that was made on the same blank, by the same people using the same machines and the same process that was used to make the gears for the 2.46:1 gear. The longer teeth work with the stock input gear, so no sweat. Dana didn't know or care whether it may cause a problem with a Warn overdrive. Now I know that, since a 26-tooth input gear meshes well with this intermediate gear (It's in there!) but not with the rusty intermediate gear in the scrap trailer (pic #2), those two gears are not the same, as I thought they might be. So I've learned of a few things to watch out for, and I'm pretty sure I have verified that what you said, Oldtime, is true - it will be obvious if tried, you cannot mix and match gears from the two different-ratio transfer cases. I recently bought a T-90 that is supposed to be in really good shape, and I have the T-case that I separated from a destroyed T-90. I think I will check these two out, give them some new bearings and seals, and bolt the overdrive on to this pair. Then that set might wind up in Uncle Lynden's jeep. BW
|
||
|
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
||
|
||
|
oldtime
Member
Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Online Points: 4184 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Feb. 2020 at 9:30pm |
|
|
Yes the change of tooth angles and the change from caged intermediate needles to uncaged needles was Dana Spicer first attempt to "quiet down " the transfer case.
There 2nd attempt in 1962 was called the Dana model 20 (AKA the "Silent Type Transfer Case" ). IMHO the D20 was an ingenious revision of the 2.46 D18. And that revision of an already existing case explains why the D20 can in large part interchange with the D18. Actually the exact "SAME" transfer case was in a state of constant change (AKA progression) all the way from its inception in 1941 until the completely new D300 arrived in 1981. |
||
|
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
||
|
||
|
Bruce W
Member
Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9651 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Feb. 2020 at 8:58pm |
|
|
I can check the numbers on the rusty gear in the second picture that I think may be the same as the one presently in the case. And I can check the numbers on on any one of several 26-tooth drive gears that I have on hand. But the transfer case is buttoned up and full of oil, and sounds good on the road. I’m not about to disassemble a well-working transfer case to check numbers. I can also check to see whether a 26-tooth drive gear appears to mesh properly with the rusty int. gear. I don’t know whether I have a 29-tooth drive gear but if I find one I can try that too.
Was the int. shaft increase to 1-1/4” part of the changes to make it quieter? “I expect that the gears can not mesh correctly due to the "slightly different pitch" and the number of gear teeth. So I'm only guessing that perhaps this is the issue that you are confronting.” I expect the same, and the gears that are inside the case now mesh well and run quietly. The input and output gears are both 26-tooth. BW
|
||
|
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
||
|
||
|
oldtime
Member
Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Online Points: 4184 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Feb. 2020 at 8:33pm |
|
The transfer case change was in mid year 1954 just prior to arrival of the CJ-5's. I read that info somewhere in an old Willys publication. It stated that the gear teeth were cut at a slightly different pitch in an effort to quite down the transfer case. Yes that is when the 29 tooth maindrive gear was used instead of the previous 26 tooth version. 2.43 uses intermediate gear Jeep part # 642189 or Spicer part # 18 - 5 - 7 2.46 uses intermediate gear Jeep part # 809293 or Spicer part # 18 - 5 - 9 So yes the intermediate gear was changed even though the actual bore diameter remained the same. To tell you the truth I have never even tried nor attempted to swap intermediate gears between the 2.43 and 2.46 ratio cases. I expect that the gears can not mesh correctly due to the "slightly different pitch" and the number of gear teeth. So I'm only guessing that perhaps this is the issue that you are confronting. Check and identify the numbers stamped into the gears. If those numbers are not found then its not a genuine Spicer gear. The correct mainshaft gear numbers are: 2.43 @ 26 tooth = Spicer # 18 -8 -19 2.46 @ 29 tooth = Spicer # 18 -8 -23
|
||
|
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
||
|
||
|
Bruce W
Member
Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9651 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Feb. 2020 at 4:55am |
|
|
So, Ken, when the ratio changed in '53-1/2, from 2.43:1 to 2.46:1, would that be when the input and output gears changed to 29 teeth from 26?
All of the gears that I used in this case came to me as a "transfer case without a case" - A box of gears and other internal parts. I cleaned a rusty dirty empty case and put those internals in it. Both the input gear and the output (I double checked) are 26 tooth gears, as you can see my marking on the gear in the first picture. If this int. gear was meant to run with 29 tooth gears, the 26's would not even mesh with it, would they? I drove the jeep today. It runs good and sounds good with the stock input gear. BW
Edited by Bruce W - 02 Feb. 2020 at 5:15am |
||
|
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
||
|
||
|
tamnalan
Member
Joined: 08 Oct. 2013 Location: Port Orford, OR Status: Offline Points: 989 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 01 Feb. 2020 at 6:29pm |
|
|
Oldtime... I don't think this was the issue in my situation unless the intermediate gears for 1.125" shafts were cut in both 2.43 and 2.46 ratios.
|
||
|
Alan Johnson
1942 MB - "TBD" 1943 MB - "Lt Bob" 1950 cj3a M-100 x2 teardrop camper: https://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=201740 |
||
|
||
|
oldtime
Member
Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Online Points: 4184 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 01 Feb. 2020 at 4:10pm |
|
|
Gulp...
Sorry I did not catch this much sooner. I guess I thought it was obvious. Do not mix match 2.43 gears with 2.46 gear sets. You can read this: The D18 was changed yet again in mid year 1954-1/2.
This progression changed the ratio from 2.43 to the 2.46 to 1 ratio. So why did they bother ? This was actually Dana Spicer's first attempt to quiet down the model 18 transfer case. The gear teeth were re-cut finer and at a slightly increased pitch. |
||
|
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
||
|
||
|
Lee MN
Member
Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4950 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 01 Feb. 2020 at 2:16pm |
|
|
So you have issues with 2 different bowl gears, and NO issues with the stock drive gear. IMO the overdrive is the problem, perhaps a tweaked planetary assembly, or for some reason the assembly that’s attatched to the trans output shaft is not running true, anyplace you can set up a dial indicator and see if it’s compramized ?....
Lee 
|
||
|
LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History |
||
|
||
|
Oilleaker1
Member
Joined: 06 Sep. 2011 Location: Black Hills, SD Status: Offline Points: 4412 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 01 Feb. 2020 at 12:26pm |
|
|
IH Scout Spicer 18's also have the 1 1/4 cases.
Those are the cases you use to put Terra Flex low 18's (1 1/4 intermediate shafts) in with some grinding of the case. The set comes complete with all the gears including the drive gear on the transmission main shaft. If you want overdrive for the low 18's you have to buy a special $550.00 bowl gear. On both my overdrives, a Warn and a Saturn, they were 1 1/8 cases, both 26 tooth. I reused what was in them for gears and never ran into this problem you have. This is actually a good thread to keep on file here for those that are adding overdrive to a a case that has the same gear as you have/had. You actually should just pound out that offending gear's shaft and change it. Then continue with your original overdrive plan. I've done it in the rig. I made a dummy shaft out of hard wood dowel. If you want your money back for the overdrive, I'd help you out.  signed , your pal, Oilly
|
||
|
Green Disease, Jeeps, Old Iron!
|
||
|
||
|
ndnchf
Member
Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 01 Feb. 2020 at 11:06am |
|
|
I just looked at my rebuilt 29 tooth, 1-1/4" IM shaft unit. It has the pointier teeth. The output gear mates with it properly. When I get my OD back from Herm, I'll look closely at it.
|
||
|
1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.
|
||
|
||
|
Bruce W
Member
Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9651 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 01 Feb. 2020 at 4:48am |
|
|
I think I'm on to something....
 This pic is of the gear that's in my transfer case now, the one that's causing all the trouble. It's the one on the lower right. This one is one of those in the scrap trailer. Note the "almost pointy" teeth.  This gear is in the case that I recently separated from a destroyed transmission.  This one is in another spare t/case.  This gear is from an MB transfer case,  as this one is, as well. The first two are both intermediate gears that run on the late, 1-1/4" shaft. The next two, still inside spare transfer cases, are on 1-1/8" shafts. I looked at another spare case but must have misplaced the picture of it. It also had the flat, blunt teeth, and a 1-1/8" shaft. The last two are both from MB transfer cases, with 3/4" shafts. It looks like the newer gears, from newer cases, that use a 1-1/4" shaft, have the longer, pointier teeth, and will cause the problem I've been having, and maybe Alan's as well. The older style gears that run on the 1-1/8" and 3/4" shafts have shorter, blunter, teeth. Has anyone ever noticed this, or had this kind of problem before? Oldtime? Aren't the intermediate gears for the 1-1/8" and the 1-1/4" shafts the same, only the shaft and the bearings are different, supposedly? BW
Edited by Bruce W - 01 Feb. 2020 at 4:56am |
||
|
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
||
|
||
|
Bruce W
Member
Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9651 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 31 Jan. 2020 at 5:17pm |
|
|
Keith,
I can’t get to where the numbers are stamped on the gear, and I’m not going to pull it out now.
I did have two to choose from and I know the number was the same on both, but the other had some wear inside so I elected this one. I’d like to look at that other one now, but can’t find it. It may be buried in the scrap trailer. There are a couple of others in the trailer that I can get to, I’ll look at them and maybe get some pictures. BW |
||
|
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
||
|
||
|
tamnalan
Member
Joined: 08 Oct. 2013 Location: Port Orford, OR Status: Offline Points: 989 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 31 Jan. 2020 at 3:37pm |
|
|
Hey Bruce - I got crap scattered in three states right now after our move to Oregon. I'm not sure where I stashed that gear, dangit. If I stumble across it then I will take some pics and post 'em.
|
||
|
Alan Johnson
1942 MB - "TBD" 1943 MB - "Lt Bob" 1950 cj3a M-100 x2 teardrop camper: https://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=201740 |
||
|
||
|
Joe Friday
Moderator Group
Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 26 Dec. 2010 Location: Jeep Central Status: Offline Points: 3654 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 31 Jan. 2020 at 7:17am |
|
|
Bruce,
If you can identify the gear part number or confirm the case shaft diameter I may have one at home. Or... If we get lucky there may be an NOS one here n Jims barn in Pine Junction. I'll be at Jims again tomorrow, then in Aurora thru Tuesday.
|
||
|
||
|
Bruce W
Member
Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9651 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 31 Jan. 2020 at 7:02am |
|
|
I appreciate the offer, Tate, but I think I'll hang on to it. I've got plenty of junk already, a little more won't be noticed.
I'll try it in the next transfer case I build or rebuild, probably the one that has the blunt teeth on the intermediate gear. I also want to look at the intermediate gears in some more cases, and at some in my scrap pile, and see whether they have blunt, flat-ended teeth or pointy ones. BW
|
||
|
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
||
|
||
|
TateC
Member
Joined: 23 Feb. 2018 Location: SLC, Utah Status: Offline Points: 510 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 31 Jan. 2020 at 5:18am |
|
|
Well since that overdrive is junk/scrap send it to me, I'll dispose of it for you.
What a bummer it didn't work out in the end, I can see why you don't want to remove the transfer case though.
|
||
|
Tate Christensen
1941 Ford GP #9687 1943 Willys MB #263100 1944 Ford GPW #234613 1945 Willys CJ2A #10226 |
||
|
||
|
Post Reply
|
Page 12> |
| Tweet |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options