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Sanity Check, D44 Full Floater

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar. 2020 at 1:13pm
I would very much like to do this some day. Gr8 job!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chasendeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar. 2020 at 1:16pm
Has anyone checked out the Roxor 44 spindle?
Jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar. 2020 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by chasendeer chasendeer wrote:

Has anyone checked out the Roxor 44 spindle?
Jay
That is a good idea. They weren't around when I was looking for a spindle/hub tjat would work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar. 2020 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

So the important question, what is a 30 spline capable spindle worth to people?

I'm not sure how to answer that.  I too have been kicking around rear axle options for several years and have not come up with a decent solution.  60's, 14 bolts, 9" all have problems if you are using an off set axle and stock configuration frame hangers, not to mention ground clearance on the two former's.  I would like to stick with a D44 and hence the spindle/hub quandary for 30 spline axles.  It would be nice if you or Jeff could come up with a ballpark figure as to what you would need to make this worthwhile.  I am interested.
1955 3B: 441sbc,AGE 4 speed transmission, Teralow D18w/Warn OD, 4.11:1 D44's/ARB's, glass tub & fenders, aluminum hood/grill, 8274, York OBA, Premier Power Welder; 67 CJ5: 225,T86AA, D18, 4.88's, OD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anvil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar. 2020 at 5:03pm
I found a drop of 5" 1018 in the rack that's just big enough to turn one spindle out of.  Might try turning out a prototype tonight if I get some time.  Since I already have it drawn up, I'm just going to run a near direct copy of the D30 spindle with the larger bore and shallow keyway in the style of Metcalf's Yukon spindle but with the back side shoulder turned to match the D44.




Edited by Anvil - 28 Mar. 2020 at 5:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 3:07pm
That's cool Don. I have some dimensions here. I'd like to compare them to yours. This is what I get for a stock D-30 hub (disk brake version):







... my stock hub has .057 meat between the bore and the bottom of the key.

Edit: Seal diameter is 2.3125

------------------------------------------------
Here would be a modified version with a 1.3 hole, bearing and a shallow key





.... this one still has .057 meat between keyway and 1.3 bore. There is .240 wall thickness at the inner bearing and .169 wall thickness for the outer bearing.

Edit: Seal diameter is 2.3125

---------------------------------------------------
This one is a modified spindle that used two SET 47 bearings.



.... .240 wall thickness for both bearings.

Edited by jpet - 30 Mar. 2020 at 3:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by chasendeer chasendeer wrote:

Has anyone checked out the Roxor 44 spindle?
Jay


It is near identical to a D25/27/early30 spindle from what I have seen.
Small bore, Deep Keyway


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 4:58pm
The numbers that Yukon was tossing around would be north of $200 each in small batches.
I think when I bought mine they where $145 retail + shipping.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:


---------------------------------------------------
This one is a modified spindle that used two SET 47 bearings.



.... .240 wall thickness for both bearings.


I wonder how much the outside bearing would hang off the step? The bearing has to be under pressure buy the washer/spindle nut combo. I wouldn't want to see the bearing overhanging like half onto the threads.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 5:40pm
I'm pretty sure that the width of both sets are the same. I know that both cones are .78 wide.

Should this spindle be derived from a d30 spindle or d25?


I think this is 12L14:



I can make these on the CNC if we agree upon the design(s). I can't do them for nothing because, I don't own the machine but I could probably do them for maybe $100 each. I have to talk to the owner. If I'm just making a few for the participants in this thread that's different. That being said, I don't want to get into anybody's kitchen, so if someone else wants to make them, I'll take 4
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chasendeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 5:49pm
If you guys do make them, would it be worth while to make some that would allow you to match a Dana 30 width? Basically add the 1.5” or so to the bolt surface. 
Just a thought 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

I'm pretty sure that the width of both sets are the same. I know that both cones are .78 wide.

Should this spindle be derived from a d30 spindle or d25?

I can make these on the CNC if we agree upon the design(s). I can't do them for nothing because, I don't own the machine but I could probably do them for maybe $100 each. I have to talk to the owner. If I'm just making a few for the participants in this thread that's different. That being said, I don't want to get into anybody's kitchen, so if someone else wants to make them, I'll take 4


To keep the outer bearing tight, it will have to overhang the threads enough that the inner spindle washer doesn't hit the step. I am just wondering what that looks like all mocked up. It doesn't seem like there are too many extra threads past the nuts when you put it all together? That makes me think the inner bearing might be over the threads by a good 1/4"+?

I believe there are small differences on the bearing hub for the later D30 spindle. When I first assembled mine with the Yukon spindles I tried to make a D25/27 bearing hub work. I ended up having to bore it out for the inner bearing cup. It never worked right. I swapped in the correct bearing hub for the spindle and everything worked perfect.

I do think that the D25/27/early30/roxor spindle will have a broader application base.

I have looked into getting them made. I couldn't touch $100 each real numbers. Just the material was $40-60 per blank. I think the factory and Yukon make these from a near shape forging. It is a small volume market for sure, but I do believe this system is WAY better than the existing way that full float axles where done. It would also allow a 30 spline front system.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by chasendeer chasendeer wrote:

If you guys do make them, would it be worth while to make some that would allow you to match a Dana 30 width? Basically add the 1.5” or so to the bolt surface. 
Just a thought 
Jay


I did that on my full float conversion with a 6061-T6 aluminum spacer that fit between the axle bearing pocket and the spindle. I made the snout into the bearing pocket much longer. I also cut the spindle counterbore to let me use the same spindle as the front ( so one common part would work at all 4 corners).  I also added a seal in the adapter to keep the oil out of the spindle bearings.

That made things more modular which was nice.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anvil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 6:03pm
Here you go.  I don't normally print drawings that I use for myself.  This is modified for my specific needs.  The front is normal D30 dims that I took off an OEM spindle.  The rest is modified as mentioned.  I made no provision for an axle seal since I'm using flanged axles and will lube the bearings with gear lube as is normal for generic truck full floaters and not grease like a front axle.  My seal between the housing and the spindle is provided by twin o-rings and not a paper gasket.  I added .5" to the width of the mounting flange give me an extra inch of track width and better match my D30 front.

Anyway, feel free to use what you can.  The one thing that did jump out to me on your drawing is that you have the snout thread as 1.625 x 18 pitch.  My OEM spindle measures 1.625 x 16 pitch.

edit: can't get the pic to come in full size.  I'll see what I can do.
edit again: if you right click on the pic and open it in a new tab it comes in full size.  I use Chrome, not sure why it doesn't expand normally.




Edited by Anvil - 30 Mar. 2020 at 6:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by metcalf metcalf wrote:

... To keep the outer bearing tight, it will have to overhang the threads enough that the inner spindle washer doesn't hit the step. I am just wondering what that looks like all mocked up. It doesn't seem like there are too many extra threads past the nuts when you put it all together? That makes me think the inner bearing might be over the threads by a good 1/4"+? ....
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. If the Set 47 is no wider than the Set 45, it is just a matter of increasing the diameter on the outer. Do I misunderstand?

I calculate each billet to be $40. Once it is setup, the CNC does the work with little baby-sitting so the time is mostly in the 6 hole pattern and key-way.

I am not interested in mass producing these but I could do some for friends. If this starts blowing up, the price needs to be negotiated. I only like making stuff that nobody else makes. I don't want to do this if someone else already has something in the works.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by Anvil Anvil wrote:

Here you go.  I don't normally print drawings that I use for myself.  This is modified for my specific needs.  The front is normal D30 dims that I took off an OEM spindle.  The rest is modified as mentioned.  I made no provision for an axle seal since I'm using flanged axles and will lube the bearings with gear lube and not grease as is normal for generic truck full floaters.  My seal between the housing and the spindle is provided by twin o-rings and not a paper gasket.  I added .5" to the width of the mounting flange give me an extra inch of track width and better match my D30 front.

Anyway, feel free to use what you can.  The one thing that did jump out to me on your drawing is that you have the snout thread as 1.625 x 18 pitch.  Mine OEM spindle measures 1.625 x 16 pitch.



Just a quick note. I tried running gear oil lubrication on mine ( with flanged floater axles ). I could never get it to stop leaking. The gear lube, especially when hot, was just too thin in viscosity for the stock seal package I think. The spindle seal leaked. The seam at the axle flange leaked....and I tried 3-4 different materials for that gasket. It could have been my bad luck, but when I changed to grease all the leaking issues went away. I added a seals-it style seal in the spindle/spacer adapter to keep things apart.

Another note. I had a heck of a time keeping the fasteners tight between the axle and the flange ( especially with lots of rear locker use). I tried bolts, various lock washers combos, etc. The only thing that ended up working long term was changing to studs. I lightly bottomed the studs in the bearing hub with loctite. The used a heavy hex nut and not water. More locktite. Torqued enough to keep things in the elastic range. That has seemed to hold for years without issue.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anvil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:


Just a quick note. I tried running gear oil lubrication on mine ( with flanged floater axles ). I could never get it to stop leaking. The gear lube, especially when hot, was just too thin in viscosity for the stock seal package I think. The spindle seal leaked. The seam at the axle flange leaked....and I tried 3-4 different materials for that gasket. It could have been my bad luck, but when I changed to grease all the leaking issues went away. I added a seals-it style seal in the spindle/spacer adapter to keep things apart.

Another note. I had a heck of a time keeping the fasteners tight between the axle and the flange ( especially with lots of rear locker use). I tried bolts, various lock washers combos, etc. The only thing that ended up working long term was changing to studs. I lightly bottomed the studs in the bearing hub with loctite. The used a heavy hex nut and not water. More locktite. Torqued enough to keep things in the elastic range. That has seemed to hold for years without issue.

Excellent info.  I think I have the seal at the axle flange sorted with the twin o-rings.  I've run that same setup with high PSI air and oil without a problem in the past, but man, you never know.  I'll check the housing axle bore for roundness just in case.

The other thing I was thinking about was making sure there was not a pressurized atmosphere in the housing and a oil drain back/relief hole in the bottom of the spindle.  I've had plenty of truck full floaters apart and they don't run anything special seal wise.  I was looking into a dual lip seal just to see though.  On your axle flange to housing, did you check for flatness on the hub body?  Just thinking out loud.  Could just be that the D30 hub is just too whimpy and distorts?  I have a 70 J4000 Gladiator D44 closed knuckle front with 5 x 5.5 hubs on it.  I'll look at them and see what they're all about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by Anvil Anvil wrote:

Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:


Just a quick note. I tried running gear oil lubrication on mine ( with flanged floater axles ). I could never get it to stop leaking. The gear lube, especially when hot, was just too thin in viscosity for the stock seal package I think. The spindle seal leaked. The seam at the axle flange leaked....and I tried 3-4 different materials for that gasket. It could have been my bad luck, but when I changed to grease all the leaking issues went away. I added a seals-it style seal in the spindle/spacer adapter to keep things apart.

Another note. I had a heck of a time keeping the fasteners tight between the axle and the flange ( especially with lots of rear locker use). I tried bolts, various lock washers combos, etc. The only thing that ended up working long term was changing to studs. I lightly bottomed the studs in the bearing hub with loctite. The used a heavy hex nut and not water. More locktite. Torqued enough to keep things in the elastic range. That has seemed to hold for years without issue.

Excellent info.  I think I have the seal at the axle flange sorted with the twin o-rings.  I've run that same setup with high PSI air and oil without a problem in the past, but man, you never know.  I'll check the housing axle bore for roundness just in case.

The other thing I was thinking about was making sure there was not a pressurized atmosphere in the housing and a oil drain back/relief hole in the bottom of the spindle.  I've had plenty of truck full floaters apart and they don't run anything special seal wise.  I was looking into a dual lip seal just to see though.  On your axle flange to housing, did you check for flatness on the hub body?  Just thinking out loud.  Could just be that the D30 hub is just too whimpy and distorts?  I have a 70 J4000 Gladiator D44 closed knuckle front with 5 x 5.5 hubs on it.  I'll look at them and see what they're all about.


I tried just about everything. I never had issues with the spindle flange leaking. A little smear of RTV was fine with that light press fit ( and the adapter into the axle bearing pocket ).

With gear lube it always leaked out the spindle to bearing hub seal ( all new stuff and looked like it should work ). I tried it with both the modded D25/27 bearing hub and the correct late 30 unit. Always leaked.

The flange was ok, but would weep a drop of two and spray on the wheel. This was worse when the bolts would loosen up.

The change to grease seemed to fix 99.9% everything. That is just what I found worked for me.
42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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