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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb. 2022 at 9:13pm
JVanDo,

The smaller wire generally works better for sheet metal work. Likely because it's easier to melt at lower amperages and offers more control and adjustment. That's just a guess as 0.023" is all I've really used for body work.

If you go back a few pages in this thread, I prattle on and on about grinding welds and working metal. If your questions are still not answered, check my project build. The body stuff starts about here:






Edited by otto - 04 Feb. 2022 at 9:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JVanDo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb. 2022 at 1:56am
Thanks Otto. I will go back a bit and check the prattle on section. You are a great resource. Thank you, Jay.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb. 2022 at 7:44am
Originally posted by otto otto wrote:

JVanDo,

The smaller wire generally works better for sheet metal work. Likely because it's easier to melt at lower amperages and offers more control and adjustment. That's just a guess as 0.023" is all I've really used for body work.

If you go back a few pages in this thread, I prattle on and on about grinding welds and working metal. If your questions are still not answered, check my project build. The body stuff starts about here:







I suspect that if the information you have provided here were available back in 2015, I would have gain enough confidence to have restored the original body on Ol' Red. You have given the forum a treasure trove of practical information on body repair technique. Thank you. I hope I never have to use the information that you have provided us, but it's here if needed.
46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb. 2022 at 11:02am
Originally posted by SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A wrote:

Originally posted by otto otto wrote:

JVanDo,

The smaller wire generally works better for sheet metal work. Likely because it's easier to melt at lower amperages and offers more control and adjustment. That's just a guess as 0.023" is all I've really used for body work.

If you go back a few pages in this thread, I prattle on and on about grinding welds and working metal. If your questions are still not answered, check my project build. The body stuff starts about here:







I suspect that if the information you have provided here were available back in 2015, I would have gain enough confidence to have restored the original body on Ol' Red. You have given the forum a treasure trove of practical information on body repair technique. Thank you. I hope I never have to use the information that you have provided us, but it's here if needed.

Thank you Kansas, that is kind of you to say.

The whole point of this effort was to be a resource and hopefully be helpful for folks. I have learned a lot of things here on the 2a page that have helped me over the years and just wanted to contribute.


Edited by otto - 08 Sep. 2022 at 4:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2022 at 8:50pm

Paint Preparation:

Over the winter I’ve put together some thoughts on painting that will hopefully be helpful. I probably won’t cover everything, but should be enough to get you through a basic paint job. If I gloss over something or forget to elaborate on a subject important to you, bring it up. Whether it’s your first attempt at painting or if you’ve got a few jobs under your belt, there may be an easter egg in here for you. The following are most of the tricks and tips that I’ve learned over the years (some the hard way), that have gotten me through refinishing vehicles.


I’ll post up stuff as it fits and I start on painting my jeep, and as always if anyone has questions please feel free to ask. Paint products are intended to be used at room temperature (70F), so warmer or colder than that you’ll have to compensate for it. Ambient conditions here are getting kind of close to that finally, and I’m anxious to get started.


With the bare metal and filler covered with the epoxy primer, we’ll need to prepare the surface for the final finish coating. Epoxy primer is excellent for sealing the base surface but does not fill scratches much; for this you need a primer surfacer. That’s just the technical term for primers that are heavy bodied and made for filling scratches yet are easily sanded either wet or dry. We need a coating that will fill the scratches from sanding body work yet allow us to sand it smooth so the scratches won’t show in our finish coat


Most any primer touted as Hi-Build, 2K,  or the like is usually a primer surfacer, but check the technical specs to be sure. These products are all multi-component nowadays with catalysts and reducers specific to the product. Stay within a product line for best results- mix and match at your own risk! All the modern products are very expensive for quality stuff so do your research and choose wisely.




This is what I have been using. It is the "value" line at my local paint store but it doesn't mean it's cheap! Here we have activator (catalyst), primer and reducer.




Edited by otto - 17 May 2022 at 9:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stevens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 7:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 8:28pm

During the primering process you will probably notice things that you didn’t before, like little flaws and defects. Pinholes are little bubbles that form in the filler while you are mixing it up and stay hidden until you are deep into this stage of the project. These little bastards are the bane of a painter’s existence, but can be fixed. To fix pinholes, blow out the voids with compressed air to clear them out (and reveal more of them!). Mix some spot putty and tightly scrape it into the pinholes with a metal knife or spreader or even a razor blade so you don’t build up a lot of material over the pinhole but just fill it in. Then lightly sand off the residue over the pinhole. You should just see the void filled with putty. If you try to fill these with primer, the primer will just shrink into the pinhole voids and they will be visible once painted. This process can be used for deep scratches or other defects if care is taken. 

Before:



And after sanded with 150 grit. The light spot putty is a good contrast against the black expoxy primer:



This can be done over filler also, it just happened to show up better this way and I didn't notice them as much earlier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2022 at 4:02pm

A word or two about seam sealing; it is better to apply seam sealer over primer than to apply it over bare metal, and over epoxy primer is even better. Every time I have encountered a situation where someone applied seam sealer over bare metal there was rust forming under the sealer. Paint will adhere more tightly to metal than seam sealer will, and seam sealer will adhere more tightly to primer than bare metal. This is how car manufacturers have sealed up panels for decades and it seems to work for them so why not build on that precedent? I didn’t encounter any sealer in the joints of my jeep (maybe it fell out over time), but I will place some in some strategic spots: rear tail light panels, gas filler pocket, ¼ panel/front panel overlap,cowl to front section, etc. to keep water from migrating between the panels.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2022 at 6:49pm

A little history-

In ye olden days when we had acrylic lacquer primer, life was easy for painters. You could just dump some primer in the gun, add thinner, (we thin lacquers with thinner, and reduce enamels and urethanes with reducer) mix and let the mixed primer sit in the gun until you needed it. If it got a little thick, just add more thinner. Because this product transitioned from a liquid to a solid by evaporation, it tended to shrink a lot over time which would lead to sand scratches showing in the final finish if it wasn’t quite cured. Modern catalyzed products don’t do this as much, but they still should be fully cured before sanding and topcoating.


Another benefit to the lacquer primer was that there was always a gun laying around with primer in it. You could just grab a gun, give it a stir and go.This was great for guide coating either filler work or block sanding primer with a contrasting color. To do this today you would have to mix a small amount of primer with all the components, spray it, then clean up the gun when finished. This uses a lot of solvents every time guns get cleaned. On balance, the newer products are better all around than the old stuff, but a bit more work and create more waste. Rattle-can primers can be used for guide coating, but I feel it plugs up sandpaper more plus you don’t get the finely atomized mist that works better for sanding guide coat.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2022 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by otto otto wrote:

....Rattle-can primers can be used for guide coating, but I feel it plugs up sandpaper more plus you don’t get the finely atomized mist that works better for sanding guide coat.



Maybe 'guide coat specific' rattle cans by suppliers such as Upol, SEM, etc would perform better...I haven't tried any so can't help there but was just a thought.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2022 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by rocnroll rocnroll wrote:

Originally posted by otto otto wrote:

....Rattle-can primers can be used for guide coating, but I feel it plugs up sandpaper more plus you don’t get the finely atomized mist that works better for sanding guide coat.



Maybe 'guide coat specific' rattle cans by suppliers such as Upol, SEM, etc would perform better...I haven't tried any so can't help there but was just a thought.



That's a good point, there may be some task- specific rattle cans for guide coat now, it seems there is a product for everything. I don't recall it in the olden days. We just used some general use black paint.

The last task- specific rattle can paint I bought was some weld- through primer and it was almost $50! I'm far too cheap for spending $$ on guide coat primer.

Plus, I still like the fine spray from using a paint gun. Last time, I mixed some black enamel fairly thin and left it in the gun after using thinking it could be used again. It dried up and plugged up the gun. Embarrassed

edit: I am also aware of a dry black powder intended for guide coat that you swipe on with a pad. It may just be for doing bondo work and not for primer. I've used it for filler work and it was OK, but like I said, I'm cheap!


Edited by otto - 01 June 2022 at 8:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 June 2022 at 2:33pm

Another primer I thought I might mention is polyester primer; this goes by names like: Feather Fill, Slick Sand, and others. It is very heavy bodied and the gun needs a tip size in the neighborhood of 2.0 - 2.5 to even be sprayable. Think of it like sprayable bondo because that’s what it really is (and smells like).  Poly primer is generally not reduced, and is catalyzed with a light bodied clear catalyst similar to fiberglass hardener or MEK. It builds very thick and you need to work quickly to get it on the panel or you risk throwing the gun away when it hardens up in it. You have about 10 minutes to make this happen so come up with a good game plan beforehand.


Poly primer is great for large panels and sands beautifully; it's super useful for making panels straight, sanding with a long board;- usually used on show cars. I used Slick Sand on my van and it worked great to block out the large amount of real estate on that project! The only caveat to poly is that it doesn’t like bare metal at all and needs a good epoxy base for it to stick well. 


It’s still possible to run this stuff!



Photo orientation got me again, just imagine gravity working as it should.


When I last used poly primer, I borrowed a gun that had a large fluid nozzle that could spray the stuff. This go-around I’m going to attempt modifying a cheap gun to spray it. It won’t be something I’ll need a lot so it’s not imperative that this be a quality tool; in fact it’s the sh%*ttiest tool I could find. This is Horrible Fright’s infamous “purple” spray gun, and I purchased it for the princely sum of $9.99! I told myself that I would never buy anything there again, but it was under ten bucks! I always feel dirty after going to that store. This will be the last time, I swear.




The internet told me it can be modified to spray thicker hi-build primers by opening the orifice on the fluid nozzle. The gun comes with a 1.4mm nozzle and using a 5/64” drill bit, it can be opened up to 2mm.





After drilling, I used some valve lapping compound on the needle and nozzle so that they would seal better and it seems to work. I’ll try this with some hi-build primer and see how it functions; if it sprays OK then maybe try some poly primer through it or drill it slightly larger. There are inexpensive 2.5mm guns all over the internet, but if I can pull this off for under $10 and not have to wait a week or more for it to show up, win!. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote muley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 June 2022 at 3:38pm
Horrible Fright?? I always wore a mask going in there.. and that was BEFORE covid..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2022 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by muley muley wrote:

Horrible Fright?? I always wore a mask going in there.. and that was BEFORE covid..

Ha! Yes, I was in and out right quick so no one would see me.

Well I must admit that my $10 spray gun was a fail. I drilled out the fluid nozzle to 2mm to spray poly primer and tested it with regular hi-build primer mixed at 4:1. This came out of the gun like drywall texture so I remixed that batch to 4:1:1 adding reducer, which was marginally better. I tried a different air cap from another HVLP gun and the results were worse with barely anything coming out. I had to add more reducer to get the material on the parts while the gun was spitting the whole time. 


So it seems that not everything you read on the internet is completely factual, which really lowers my faith in my fellow man. This also reinforces my belief in the concept of: “YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR, DUMMY!


So I have a gun with a 2.5 mm tip on its way, we’ll see how that works out. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2022 at 11:08pm

Once your primer is cured sufficiently, block sand it using the techniques described earlier for filler, just using finer grit sandpaper. Some folks have their favorite grits for this, I like to use 150-180-220 grits for this stage. I also like to buy self adhesive paper in a roll and tear off what I need. A guide coat is very helpful during this process as it will show you where the surface is low or high, and how deep the sanding scratches are. The trick here is the same as sanding filler- know when to stop sanding. If you sand through the primer, you can always put more on. That’s the idea here where you are sanding down the high areas and bringing up the lows by adding more primer. If you short cutted the filler work, this is where you will be paying the piper by adding more expensive primers, catalyst, reducer, gun cleaning solvents, sandpaper, creating waste solvents, time, etc. Get the idea?


Other thoughts on sanding: always use a block or pad, never your hand alone. If you use just your hand, you risk putting finger grooves into the primer. This applies to wet or dry sanding.

The same tricks apply to sanding primer- the paint stirring stick is an excellent tool for backing up sandpaper in small areas. Use the best tool that fits here; long boards for large flat areas, shorter pads/blocks for others and softer pads for curves. There is a broad selection of sandpapers for this task.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2022 at 9:02pm

Once you have your substrate to the point you feel good enough about it to spray expensive paint over it, it needs a final sanding. This is done using water and fine sandpaper- usually 400-600 grit. You could use a guide coat for this if you want, sometimes it is helpful. You’re going to sand all of it off so it shouldn’t cause any problems with the topcoat. I use a little soap in the water while sanding and change out the water often, because it will get a little thick with all the primer slurry. On flat panels I use a block to final sand, other surfaces I’ll use a pad under the paper (again,not your bare hand!). If you sand through any primer during the final sanding, I recommend reprimering over the spot and resanding. If you don’t do this, you run the risk of seeing a “ring” show up in the finish over time where you sanded through. Sometimes a good sealer prior to putting on the topcoat will take care of this, but good prep is cheap insurance. In fact, I strongly recommend using a sealer prior to topcoating- just make sure the sealer is within the same paint line or is compatible with the products you’re using. If you’re not sure, ask the nice people at the paint store.


Another thing I like to do is a final wash of the vehicle before painting. I’ll use a little bit of soap in the water and a clean wash mitt and wash the vehicle like you would on a Sunday afternoon. This cleans all the wet sanding slurry from the vehicle, and if it doesn’t get it all it will at least settle the slurry in spots that won’t blow out as dust as much. As I do painting during the summer months only, this works out well drying the vehicle. You want the primer as dry as possible so do this days before you plan to paint.


Even though you washed the vehicle thoroughly, you still need to give it a wipedown with solvent to remove oils, greases, waxes, fingerprints, etc., this is a two rag operation. Wipe the solvent on with one rag and wipe it off with a clean, dry rag. This floats impurities up with the solvent and the dry rag catches them. I’m paranoid about cleaning before painting so I’ll do this more than once. There are many proprietary products that you can buy, but I use regular old mineral spirits from the hardware store. Here’s a little secret: I think it’s the same stuff as the expensive cleaners. Right before spraying anything on this prepared surface, wipe a tack rag lightly over everything. The sticky resin in the tack rag will catch any dust or loose stuff on the surface, at this point, I’m super paranoid and do this more than once also.


Here’s a helpful hint: wash your hands before working on your project, especially if you’ve eaten some greasy foods for lunch like french fries, potato chips, etc. You run the risk of getting grease and oils onto the surface and causing fisheyes and other defects. Something to be aware of and more cheap insurance.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2022 at 3:22pm

I’ll mention masking a little at this point. It may seem like there is not much to know about masking off areas that you don’t want to paint, but there are a few tricks. Use masking paper meant for masking, not newspaper, gift wrap, or whatever you have laying around. Even the cheapest masking paper is better than newspaper. Newspaper is linty- not something you want adjacent to wet paint. Also buy decent masking tape; cheap masking tape may stick, but you also want the tape to come off cleanly afterwards- that’s what you’re paying a little extra for. If you need to paint two colors next to one another, (like a two-tone, or racing stripes!) get some 3M Fine Line tape. Using masking tape for this won’t leave a crisp, clean edge as masking tape will let the paint creep under it. Well worth it.


For areas or panels that you will be spraying both sides of (at different times), it is important to mask off all holes and gaps or any space that will allow overspray to creep in on the fresh paint on the other side. Even the smallest hole left open will allow paint mist to get on the new shiny surface on the other side. You may be able to use some compound and clean it off if it’s not too bad, but it’s better to avoid this to begin with.


Plastic sheeting can be used for masking large areas, but with a caveat. Don’t use plastic sheeting adjacent to where you are spraying paint. This might work on the first coat, but during the subsequent coats the air flow may flutter the plastic and dislodge paint from the plastic into your wet paint. Try to stretch the plastic tight so it won’t flutter. Always place at least 12” of paper next to where paint is being sprayed. Make folds in masking paper like you are wrapping gifts- nice and tight. If you have folds in the paper, make sure the overlap folds are at the bottom so dust and overspray don’t collect in them. Or better yet, tape them closed. I use a hand-held masking paper dispenser that holds a roll of tape; makes this so much easier. 


Here on the van project I'm using plastic sheeting on the roof and fine line tape to separate the colors:



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berettajeep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2022 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by otto otto wrote:

I always feel dirty after going to that store. This will be the last time, I swear.



 LOL  They just opened a new one near me very recently and I felt dirty as soon as I walked through the door. They were only opened one day when I went. Confused
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