Battery Power - Not Cranking Under Compression |
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ndnchf
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177 |
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Ok, wasnt sure if you tried it with the nrw starter.
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1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.
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Mark W.
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 09 Nov. 2014 Location: Silverton, OR Status: Offline Points: 7982 |
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Ok this may not have anything to do with your problem but 134 ring gears come 97, 124, & 129 tooth varieties.
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Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized 1949 3A W/S 1957 CJ5 Frame Modified Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962 |
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jgodfrey
Member Joined: 07 Oct. 2020 Location: Shakopee MN Status: Offline Points: 663 |
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I just went back to the pictures. I pulled a 124 tooth ring gear and installed a 97 tooth.
I'm regretting the decision to switch to the version of a starter.
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48willys
Member Joined: 22 June 2007 Location: sw/ virginia Status: Offline Points: 1340 |
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I may have missed something, but have you tried cranking it with the plugs in and the ignition off?
That quick test would rule out bad timing or a switched plug wire. |
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1946 cj2a #28680
1948 chevy 3800 thriftmaster 1946-50's cj2a-3a farm jeep 1993 yj, aka the yj7 |
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jgodfrey
Member Joined: 07 Oct. 2020 Location: Shakopee MN Status: Offline Points: 663 |
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Yep. I have pulled the plugs and cranked it many times. With them pulled it cranks at what seems like a normal rpm for starting.
Here's 3 videos. The first is the very first try after installing the second rebuilt starter. The second is after pausing for a few seconds after the end of the first video. The third is after pulling the plugs. https://youtu.be/1q2-N5-dWus (not sure why this isn't showing up as a link. Just copy/paste it into the browser address) In all, the battery was cranking, or attempting to crank for a total of 30 seconds, and still read 100% on my charger, and metered at 6.5V at the battery post. But the voltage to the starter went from 5.7 to 4.2 between the first and second videos. But back to 5.5V with the plugs out. I'm totally stumped. And just for clarity, I'm not even to the point of troubleshooting fuel, spark, etc. I'm just trying to get it to turn over enough to try to start it. With the previous starter/ring gear combo it would crank fast and fire right up. This is the second rebuilt starter I've tried in 2 days. Brand new battery, topped off and showing as 100% charge.
Edited by jgodfrey - 17 Oct. 2021 at 12:28am |
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48willys
Member Joined: 22 June 2007 Location: sw/ virginia Status: Offline Points: 1340 |
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Was the ignition on or off in the first and second video?
So here is my line of thinking, if the ignition was on. The 3A starter is a little stronger, larger ring gear smaller bendex gear. Your timing could be set a little more advanced than it should be, that wasn’t a problem with the old starter, but the new starter may not have the mechanical advantage of the 3A starter to get the pistons past top dead center under fire. This is just my thoughts though, I don’t know for sure if one starting setup is stronger than the other. It’s just that mine does the same thing as yours if I get the ignition advanced to much. Edited by 48willys - 17 Oct. 2021 at 9:42am |
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1946 cj2a #28680
1948 chevy 3800 thriftmaster 1946-50's cj2a-3a farm jeep 1993 yj, aka the yj7 |
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4184 |
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Don’t know anything much about your Jeep but I’ll take a wild guess here. I think the battery might be junk.
I once bought a brand new yet very “cheap” battery. It started my Jeep maybe twice and then I had to go buy a new. one. Paid like half price for it and got nothing for my money. Lesson learned.
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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jgodfrey
Member Joined: 07 Oct. 2020 Location: Shakopee MN Status: Offline Points: 663 |
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I don't have the voltage regulator in yet, so I'm attaching the coil to the battery when I'm running it. I do not believe I had fuel or the coil attached for these, because it was the first crank to see how it did.
I did retard the timing by turning the distributor a couple degrees counter clockwise. It didn't seem to make a difference. One thought I had overnight was that it really feels like pressure builds up, somewhere, and it can no longer crank it. With 2 starters and 2 brand new batteries, and the voltage readings I'm getting at the starter, and the fact that it cranks a few times, then really struggles, it just feels like that could be it. But where? Another piece of evidence for that theory is the fact that it cranks fine without the plugs. I'm going to take apart the exhaust at the manifold and see if there is a blockage. Ehat would be some methods to test if air flow is being blocked?
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Oldpappy
Member Joined: 09 Apr. 2018 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 4905 |
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I seriously doubt the exhaust is blocked, you had it running before so I cannot imagine what could have possibly blocked the exhaust unless you stuffed something in there when you pulled the engine.
If you want to take something apart I suggest pulling the valve cover, and turning it over with a wrench and the plugs out, to make sure your valves are opening.
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If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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ndnchf
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177 |
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Have you tried using the hand crank? It may not start easily, but if you can manually crank it over by hand for say 10 revolutions withiut hitting a hard spot, that could eliminate a blockage.
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1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.
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Rus Curtis
Member Joined: 25 Mar. 2010 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 1733 |
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The videos are telling to me. I admit, I may be over simplifying it and missing something else others are seeing.
If the engine turns over with the plugs removed, that should eliminate: wiring, starter, bendix and ring gear matching. All that stuff works and from the video, fairly well from what I see. Both Lee and Muley asked about the timing. I asked in your other post about firing order, but in that other post, the main focus was on text in service manuals for troubleshooting. You never directly addressed either (that I could find-maybe I missed it). So, have you checked the firing order? Have you checked the timing (static check). At this point, how do you know the timing gears are clocked. With the plugs removed, there's no compression and it wouldn't matter if the valves are out of sync with the pistons since no pressure would build. I think pulling the side valve cover to observe may confirm before you need to pull the front cover to eyeball the gears. It may be worth confirming and then one more possibility could be ruled out.
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Rus Curtis
Alabama 1954 CJ3B Bantam T3-C |
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Oilleaker1
Member Joined: 06 Sep. 2011 Location: Black Hills, SD Status: Offline Points: 4412 |
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Question: is this a brand new rebuild with tight bearings and new main seal?
Just wondering about oil pressure and being broken in or not. Not the best idea, but a 12 volt battery to turn it over would boost it---------also burn up the starter if turned too long. If the wiring is not in correct sequence it would backfire out the exhaust or carb. When all else fails, pull it behind the pickup.
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Green Disease, Jeeps, Old Iron!
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jgodfrey
Member Joined: 07 Oct. 2020 Location: Shakopee MN Status: Offline Points: 663 |
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Yes. I confirmed the firing order several times. But let's make sure our terms are the same. I traced each ug back to the distributor and verified the correct firing order, 1-3-4-2. I've had this engine running many times since the rebuild. Originally, most the ago, when I couldn't get it to fire for the first time since the rebuild, this forum helped me get the advance set. It was purringike a kitten until I changed the ring gear. I have the temp and oil pressure garages hooked up and all was well there. I looked in the pictures, pre-ring gear change, and the distributor is in the exact same position. I'm going to take Oldpappy's advice and pop the valve cover and see what's happening. Without the plugs I have a lot of air movement through those holes. When it won't crank I obviously can't tell what's happening, which is why I will also try to turn it over with a wrench. I wanted to put a hand crank nut on it and buy the lever, but I had bigger financial tasks to get completed. So I'll break out the half inch ratchet. I agree that this is looking like a resistance issue not a starter issue. I have a small camera and will also attempt to scope it. If I can't figure it out today I'm putting it on a trailer to the shop that rebuilt the engine. I'm reluctant but if feel like it needs a fresh set of eyes.
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Steelyard Blues
Member Joined: 09 Oct. 2017 Location: Reno, NV Status: Offline Points: 1497 |
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Parts mix up happens, did you confirm that the replacement ring gear is actually 97 teeth? Possibly the starter is able to deal with the mismatch when not under load, plugs out, but cannot when under load/ compression.
Just a though.
Micah |
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1947 CJ2A 106327, Engine J109205, Tub 97077. Luzon Red
https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981 1965 Johnson Furnace Company M416 #6-1577 |
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Michaeltru
Member Sponsor Member x 3 Joined: 22 Oct. 2012 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 988 |
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How about jumping the starter directly with a 12V battery? Otherwise, disconnect 6V completely from the jeep, then direct jump the starter from the 6V? Isolate everything from the battery and the starter
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Mike in AZ
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Rus Curtis
Member Joined: 25 Mar. 2010 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 1733 |
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Firing order-ok. With the valve cover off, watching the valves open and close - when they're supposed to - good. Timing static: Using your wrench on the crank nut, turn until you get compression on #1. Now remove the distributor cap. Is it lined up with the number one plug? If not, turn the distributor/rearrange the wires to get the 1-3-4-2 (doesn't matter if it's different from the figure in the manual) in correct order. There's a flow chart here somewhere that shows all this. Mine was out 180 and I didn't know it. I hope I'm wrong, but having it bog and lock up when the plugs are in makes me think the valves aren't synchronized with the piston strokes or the plugs are sparking at the wrong time.
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Rus Curtis
Alabama 1954 CJ3B Bantam T3-C |
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Bruce W
Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9651 |
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Did you remove the plug wires when you R&R’d the engine to replace the ring gear? Or move the distributor? No? Then there’s no reason to believe that the distributor is out of time. Did you have the front cover off and remove the cam or crank gear? No? Then there’s no reason to believe that the camshaft can be out of time. THINK!
It sounds like you have eliminated everything electrical, including cleaning ground points, more than once, except the ground cable itself. Is it good and clean inside the clamp on the battery post? Where is it connected to the frame or block? Do you have the grounding strap between the frame and the engine? When the starter is struggling to turn the engine, does the ground cable get hot near either end? How old is the ground cable? You have bypassed the entire “hot” side of the system with a jumper cable, how about the ground side? Connect a jumper to the battery - post and one of the starter mounting bolts, see if that makes a difference. You did something during the R&R process that caused this. The distributor or the camshaft did not magically become out of time. Don’t go dickin’ with the distributor or camshaft and cause more problems. You might just as well check to make sure the tailgate chains are hooked the right way. BW . |
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It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
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jgodfrey
Member Joined: 07 Oct. 2020 Location: Shakopee MN Status: Offline Points: 663 |
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