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Battery Power - Not Cranking Under Compression

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Bitz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 7:59pm
Hey Jason. I may not have the big picture of your battery to starter. But you make it sound like your battery is connected straight on.

“l had the meter on it for the first crank of the new starter and it was 5.7 volts. Now, even though the battery says it's 100% I measure 4.2 volts at the starter when attempting to turn it over.  Yet I still get 6.5 volts at the battery post.”

I am just starting to learn the Willys starters etc but if the battery is at +6 volt and you are only pulling 4.2 bolts at the starter then where are you dumping amps?  One thing to know is a typical digital or analog V-meter can’t really confirm good bonding. It takes a Millie-ohm meter for that. So if you have say 3 ohms resistance in your cable then that gives you a 2 volt drop potentially at the connection point. At least in the aircraft world our bonding requirements for grounds etc is typically 10mv dc max. There are some installations we can get to a 100mv but that is not typical. 

Any chance at the 4 volts you just don’t have enough to get pass the initial surge you get to keep cranking. 

Maybe I am way off but from reading all the ideas and your attempts it seems like something you have tried but missed might be it. 

And maybe get an 8 v battery if you don’t want to risk a 12v.  My CJ2A was converted over to an 8 v years ago. And not trying to start a 6 vs 8 v battery discussion. Lots of threads about that already. 

Bitz 


Edited by Bitz - 17 Oct. 2021 at 8:00pm
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Steelyard Blues View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 8:36pm
In light of your last post, my ring teeth count may not be the issue. I don't recall previously reading about the amount of gasoline you removed from the intake. 

I'm wondering if you flushed away all the oil on the cylinder walls allowing the rings to score the walls. When the engine is cool, you get some rotation until friction causes the engine to seize. When it get cool again, you get some movement until friction sets in. 

Try squirting some oil into the bore and see if it frees up. I fear you trashed your new motor. 

Micah 
1947 CJ2A 106327, Engine J109205, Tub 97077. Luzon Red

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

I don't recall previously reading about the amount of gasoline you removed from the intake. 

I'm wondering if you flushed away all the oil on the cylinder walls allowing the rings to score the walls. When the engine is cool, you get some rotation until friction causes the engine to seize. When it get cool again, you get some movement until friction sets in. 

Try squirting some oil into the bore and see if it frees up. I fear you trashed your new motor. 

Micah 

  I got to wondering the same thing. If that’s the case, maybe it will be alright, since it hasn’t actually run that way. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

Parts mix up happens, did you confirm that the replacement ring gear is actually 97 teeth? Possibly the starter is able to deal with the mismatch when not under load, plugs out, but cannot when under load/ compression. 

Just a though. 

Micah  

I did.  I used a sharpie. And numbered them. I did the same on the ring gear that was in it and verified it was 127.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

I don't recall previously reading about the amount of gasoline you removed from the intake. 

I'm wondering if you flushed away all the oil on the cylinder walls allowing the rings to score the walls. When the engine is cool, you get some rotation until friction causes the engine to seize. When it get cool again, you get some movement until friction sets in. 

Try squirting some oil into the bore and see if it frees up. I fear you trashed your new motor. 

Micah 

  I got to wondering the same thing. If that’s the case, maybe it will be alright, since it hasn’t actually run that way. 
BW 

It only turns over maybe 10-15 times.  And I can go away for an hour and it still bogs. Until I leave for a couple days or pull the plugs. 

Bruce  - did you see the in-line answers to your questions?  With the card off and plugs in it cranked.  Put the carb back on, it bogs. With the carb off I put my hand over the hole in the intake and there is a ton of suction.  I couldn't  test it with the carb on because it wouldn't turn over. Thoughts on that? 

I have it prepped to put it on a trailer to the shop that rebuilt the engine.  I have a gut feeling he'll do something to the carb and it will fire up. Fingers crossed anyway. 

He needed to chase a leak in the pan gasket, as well as do a final timing and carb adjustments anyway.  The intention was to drive it there with my dad once it was fished.  But his health isn't good, and the body (normandy blue) will be done by next weekend. 


Edited by jgodfrey - 17 Oct. 2021 at 10:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct. 2021 at 12:59am
  "Bruce  - did you see the in-line answers to your questions?  With the card off and plugs in it cranked.  Put the carb back on, it bogs. With the carb off I put my hand over the hole in the intake and there is a ton of suction.  I couldn't  test it with the carb on because it wouldn't turn over. Thoughts on that? "

  I saw your answers. So we know that the ground side of the circuit has been bypassed and eliminated.
My thoughts on the carburetor causing the engine to be hard to turn over? - "Not possible". Well, unless we're walking a thin line here, where with no resistance the starter can turn the engine but any resistance at all is too much, which brings us back to the battery, the starter, the cables, and all of the connections. Did it "bog" with your hand over the opening?

  Get some oil on top of the pistons somehow. It's not easy with the spark plug holes over the valves, but I've found that with a piece of washer hose on the spout of a squirt oil can you can get it in there. Whether that solves the problem or not, it's probably needed.
BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct. 2021 at 10:15am
I agree with Bruce, as I do not see how the carburetor being on or off would have anything to do with the engine turning over. 

I also agree you should try to get some oil into the cylinders as they could have been washed dry with all the flooding, and since it is a recently rebuilt engine with tight rings and recently honed cylinders, that could possibly cause enough resistance. This is certainly worth a try. It might fix the issue, or it might not, but it won't hurt anything. If it fires up after this do not be alarmed by it smoking, that will be the oil burning off.

If I lived nearby I would come help figure this intriguing mystery out, but I don't, so with all the trouble you are having with diagnosis if the oil doesn't help it may be best for your own sanity to go ahead and take it to a mechanic. 
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct. 2021 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

I don't recall previously reading about the amount of gasoline you removed from the intake. 

I'm wondering if you flushed away all the oil on the cylinder walls allowing the rings to score the walls. When the engine is cool, you get some rotation until friction causes the engine to seize. When it get cool again, you get some movement until friction sets in. 

Try squirting some oil into the bore and see if it frees up. I fear you trashed your new motor. 

Micah 

  I got to wondering the same thing. If that’s the case, maybe it will be alright, since it hasn’t actually run that way. 
BW 

UPDATE - And the award for the biggest brains in this thread goes to...
Steelyard Blues and BruceW

I trailered this to the shop and he had it running in about 10 minutes.  He cranked it off the battery, and said immediately that it was cranking too slow.  I told about the flooding and he said, "Well, if it was flooded that bad you washed the oil of the cylinders."

He then put a wrench on the crank and tried to turn it.  He heard a squeak and confirmed his theory.  Then he pulled the plugs and sprayed penetrating oil in each cylinder and slowly cranked it by hand.  After a few revolutions he hit the starter again and it spun super fast.  I guess I hadn't noticed the speed difference.

He poured some gas in the carb and it fired immediately.  That is the good news.

The jury is still out on the potential damage.  He said that since it didn't run no real heat built up.  And since it was a fresh engine I might be ok.  So we'll see.

He smelled the oil and told me there was fuel in it, and that the first thing he would need to do is change the oil.  He's doing that now and will try again this afternoon.  It will smoke until the penetrating oil he dropped in from the top burns off.  Then we will know if there is damage.

I did see the oil pressure gauge for to 40 almost immediately after hit got it to fire though.  So, fingers crossed.

A huge thanks to everyone that helped with this one, and a special achievement awarded to Steelyard Blues and BruceW.

I will update once I know if the engine is hatched or fine.

Thanks again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct. 2021 at 3:28pm
Glad it is sorted out. Hoping no damage 

Bitz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct. 2021 at 5:06pm
Great news!

I doubt there is any real damage, heck it may just help the rings seat a little faster. 

If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct. 2021 at 5:56pm
Glad to hear it!

And given his other related multi-page post that died on the vine, he didn't have to replace any ignition parts to discover it.

Pretty sure flywheel ring gear tooth counts are 97, 124, and 129.


Edited by Ron D - 18 Oct. 2021 at 7:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct. 2021 at 7:27pm
Great news!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct. 2021 at 8:09pm
I was just jumping on here to tell you to give the oil a sniff test for gas and to suggest changing it. Very glad to hear that you got her up and running. Fingers crossed that there is no damage and all is well. 

Micah
1947 CJ2A 106327, Engine J109205, Tub 97077. Luzon Red

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981

1965 Johnson Furnace Company M416 #6-1577
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dasvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct. 2021 at 9:00pm
Congrats!
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1953 CJ3A #453-GB1 11266 "Black Beauty"
1964 Thunderbird convertible
..... & one of them moves under it's own power!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rus Curtis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct. 2021 at 11:31pm
This IS good news!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct. 2021 at 8:43am
The final verdict - no damage.  He changed the oil, tuned and timed it, and said it was ready.

I picked it up, got it back in the garage, and got some gas to it because I had to hear it.

It popped on the first touch of the button and purred quieter and smoother than I've ever heard it.

What a relief. 

He said the vacuum and compression were right where they should be.

Now on to the body. 

Thanks again everyone!


Edited by jgodfrey - 19 Oct. 2021 at 1:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willyt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct. 2021 at 9:01am
Sure am glad you got it fixed. But I'm going to miss all the suggestions and chatter. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct. 2021 at 11:10am
If you think about it there were some valuable lessons to all this. You have likely learned some things that will serve you well in the future, albeit I am sure you wanted to pull your hair out at times during the process. 

None of us were born mechanics, and while some went to school for it, most of us have learned through our own hard lessons over the years. 

I would wager you are a happier man today than you were last week Beer




 
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