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Metcalf View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Nov. 2021 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by Fltfndr Fltfndr wrote:

 If  you unlocked one of the front lockouts, wouldn't that solve the problem of running your rig in snow with an automatic mocker in the front?


I've played around with it, it didn't work very well.

That dead tire really kills you. An open diff is till 'trying' to drive both tires. That dead tire isn't doing anything. You can see this on the trail on vehicles that break a front axle. It really hinders the vehicle, especially when trying to climb up and over anything.


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Yes and no.  It might be helpful in some situations, especially if you also have a rear auto locker (and can't unlock a rear hub).  But I don't think it's very ideal.

It would give some weird handling and you'd be losing the use of one front tire for driving so it would be harder to make forward progress.

Plus, as Metcalf was pointing out, unless you have an automatic locker (or spool) in the rear, usually with a front automatic locker you can just turn the front wheels to point up hill and pretty much go where the Jeep is pointed.

But if you do have an auto locker in the rear and the whole Jeep is sliding sideways, unlocking one front hub would keep that tire from spinning, so it would help you track better.  And the locker would keep driving the other tire, so it's not like you'd be back to 2WD.
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 If  you unlocked one of the front lockouts, wouldn't that solve the problem of running your rig in snow with an automatic mocker in the front?
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thank you, thank you, and holy Jeepers gentleman. i think i just learned more in reading one forum page than in 20 years of trying feebly to understand this subject. you guys are shining the right lights.
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Seth, (windy hill)

Can you clarify what type of differential was in the rear?

Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

Originally posted by windyhill windyhill wrote:

Front locker in the snow sucks you will turn you wheels and plow sideways,  Yes a locker in the rear will tend to make your rear kick out, but that's at least more predictable.  3:73's suck on the trail,  I had them in a 67 with a v6, it did do great burnouts but was geared way high. swapped to 4:27's and it was a bit better.  for a trailer rig, 5:38's are the best.  I'm running the same v6, T-18, combo with 5:38's and an overdrive.  I thinks it's the best combo there is.  With lower gears alone you'll do way better off road. Add a selectable in the rear and see how it goes. I would never run a non selectable up front again.


My front automatic locker doesn't behave like that with the rear open, if I lock up the rear then it will push more. That is why I run a selectable rear locker. With the rear end open the front tires just go where I point them.
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Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

Originally posted by JeepFever JeepFever wrote:

....  I forgot to mention,   Wilson also has manual Saginaw steering.  When front selectable locker is engaged,  there is a VERY noticeable resistance to steering effort. 

Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

....  The only real downside to a front automatic locker is a slightly stronger return to center feeling in the wheel under power. I think an automatic front locker does a better job doing it's lock-unlock-lock thing vs a locked selectable. There is definitely less steering resistance....

This all makes sense, and (mostly) jives with my experience with automatic and selectable lockers in the front.

If you are standing still and try to turn the steering wheel, one front tire will roll forward and the other will roll backward.  If you are moving forward essentially the same thing will happen, but when added to the forward speed it's just the inside tire turning slower than the outside.

With a locked selectable locker in the front the tires can't do that.  They are locked together so they have to turn the same speed, therefore it's really hard to turn the steering wheel unless you can spin a tire, or a tire is in the air or something.  You can unlock it to make the turn, but with it bound up like that the locker might not unlock that easily.  I've found I can get it to unlock pretty quickly by sawing the steering wheel back and forth, but it does take some work.

On the other hand, an auto locker never locks the two sides together.  It will never let either tire turn slower than the ring gear, but it will always let one tire turn faster.  So as you turn the steering wheel the auto locker freely lets the outside tire turn faster and there's essentially no extra drag in the steering.

But this is also where what Metcalf calls the slightly stronger return to center feel comes from.  If you are on the power in a turn the auto locker is only driving the inside tire, so it's trying to pull itself back straight.  In my limited experience this isn't a slightly stronger return to center, it's a very strong, very annoying thing.  Still, Metcalf has a lot more experience than me here.  And all of his arguments about how a front auto locker works better than a front selectable make perfect sense to me.  I think it's likely that in a trail vehicle I might very well value the better performance of a front auto locker enough that I'd be willing to put up with the annoyance.  I do hope to try that some time (with a rear selectable like he recommends)


My 'other' off-road vehicle is my #LX45 project, it is selectable/selectable/selectable. It is full time 4wd with selectable lockers in all 3 differentials. It is without a doubt more work to drive than my flat fender ( with automatic front and selectable rear ). I am always pushing buttons in the LX45.

With the rear locker open on the flatty, I find the added 'return to center' with the automatic locker almost non-existent, but I do have power steering. I also have SUPER wide tires and run them at ridiculously low pressures.  I find the front axle bind ( even with hydraulic assist steering ) on the LX45 with the front selectable locker much more annoying. The scrub forces with effectively a spool are MUCH higher. The front locker also doesn't want to disengage very quickly at all. You pretty much have to turn the complete opposite direction to get it to unlock. The rear selectable lockers on both vehicles are much more happy to unlock. I think this has something to do with the higher differential wheel speeds on the REAR axles the front.

I keep trying new things and watching for new technology, but for me, I keep coming back to the automatic front locker and rear selectable being the benchmark for how things should work all around.




42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

My front automatic locker doesn't behave like that with the rear open, if I lock up the rear then it will push more. That is why I run a selectable rear locker. With the rear end open the front tires just go where I point them.

I think the biggest down-side to lockers in either axle in snow wheeling is that they let you spin both tires so it's hard not to slide sideways on a side hill.  Open/open will only spin one tire per axle so the other tire will help keep that end from going sideways.  But of course then you might not have enough traction to go anywhere.

I haven't used a front auto locker much, but I do think it would be less bad than a rear auto locker on side hills because you can turn the wheels uphill so they can try to crab their way in the direction you want to go, while an open diff in the rear could help keep the back end in line.


I've done a lot of snow-wheeling, just like in any slick condition, the front axle wants to go where I point it. I've never been in a situation where the front automatic locker has gotten me in trouble and an open front axle has gotten further. 

I have noticed that rear locker use ( including only having a rear locker and front open ) will cause the vehicle to crab downhill much more. You have to be ready to drive around that. I like to call it the 'slip' angle. You get to a point where the slip angle gets so extreme the vehicle basically leaves 3-grooves across the slope.

The next level for a lot of this stuff is adding rear cutting brakes, a transfer case that can drive the front axle only, and even adding rear steering.


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Originally posted by JeepFever JeepFever wrote:

....  I forgot to mention,   Wilson also has manual Saginaw steering.  When front selectable locker is engaged,  there is a VERY noticeable resistance to steering effort. 

Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

....  The only real downside to a front automatic locker is a slightly stronger return to center feeling in the wheel under power. I think an automatic front locker does a better job doing it's lock-unlock-lock thing vs a locked selectable. There is definitely less steering resistance....

This all makes sense, and (mostly) jives with my experience with automatic and selectable lockers in the front.

If you are standing still and try to turn the steering wheel, one front tire will roll forward and the other will roll backward.  If you are moving forward essentially the same thing will happen, but when added to the forward speed it's just the inside tire turning slower than the outside.

With a locked selectable locker in the front the tires can't do that.  They are locked together so they have to turn the same speed, therefore it's really hard to turn the steering wheel unless you can spin a tire, or a tire is in the air or something.  You can unlock it to make the turn, but with it bound up like that the locker might not unlock that easily.  I've found I can get it to unlock pretty quickly by sawing the steering wheel back and forth, but it does take some work.

On the other hand, an auto locker never locks the two sides together.  It will never let either tire turn slower than the ring gear, but it will always let one tire turn faster.  So as you turn the steering wheel the auto locker freely lets the outside tire turn faster and there's essentially no extra drag in the steering.

But this is also where what Metcalf calls the slightly stronger return to center feel comes from.  If you are on the power in a turn the auto locker is only driving the inside tire, so it's trying to pull itself back straight.  In my limited experience this isn't a slightly stronger return to center, it's a very strong, very annoying thing.  Still, Metcalf has a lot more experience than me here.  And all of his arguments about how a front auto locker works better than a front selectable make perfect sense to me.  I think it's likely that in a trail vehicle I might very well value the better performance of a front auto locker enough that I'd be willing to put up with the annoyance.  I do hope to try that some time (with a rear selectable like he recommends)


Edited by Nothing Special - 26 Nov. 2021 at 11:28pm
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Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

My front automatic locker doesn't behave like that with the rear open, if I lock up the rear then it will push more. That is why I run a selectable rear locker. With the rear end open the front tires just go where I point them.

I think the biggest down-side to lockers in either axle in snow wheeling is that they let you spin both tires so it's hard not to slide sideways on a side hill.  Open/open will only spin one tire per axle so the other tire will help keep that end from going sideways.  But of course then you might not have enough traction to go anywhere.

I haven't used a front auto locker much, but I do think it would be less bad than a rear auto locker on side hills because you can turn the wheels uphill so they can try to crab their way in the direction you want to go, while an open diff in the rear could help keep the back end in line.


Edited by Nothing Special - 26 Nov. 2021 at 11:27pm
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Originally posted by bight bight wrote:

thanks
Metcalf, would putting a lock rite up front in the D25 and leave rear open make sense from your experience?


I am firmly in the front locker first camp for that I do. I prefer front automatic lockers.  

The only real downside to a front automatic locker is a slightly stronger return to center feeling in the wheel under power. I think an automatic front locker does a better job doing it's lock-unlock-lock thing vs a locked selectable. There is definitely less steering resistance.

All this stuff falls into the nuance of the '3wd problem'. That is what happens when open/open isn't enough and spool/spool isn't maneuverable enough.


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Originally posted by windyhill windyhill wrote:

Front locker in the snow sucks you will turn you wheels and plow sideways,  Yes a locker in the rear will tend to make your rear kick out, but that's at least more predictable.  3:73's suck on the trail,  I had them in a 67 with a v6, it did do great burnouts but was geared way high. swapped to 4:27's and it was a bit better.  for a trailer rig, 5:38's are the best.  I'm running the same v6, T-18, combo with 5:38's and an overdrive.  I thinks it's the best combo there is.  With lower gears alone you'll do way better off road. Add a selectable in the rear and see how it goes. I would never run a non selectable up front again.


My front automatic locker doesn't behave like that with the rear open, if I lock up the rear then it will push more. That is why I run a selectable rear locker. With the rear end open the front tires just go where I point them.
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My setup 134L (now a 7.2-1 compression 140 cu in) T-90A 30% OD D-18 30spline D-44 flanged with an Eaton E-Locker G2 5.38 gears

OD won't stay in direct and I haven't done anything in 4x4

Eventually I will build either a D30 or narrow up a D-44 to run an Eaton E Locker in the front as well.
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Right !  IMHO you just can’t get more versatile than a D225 / T18 / D18 / 25% O.D. / D30-D44 with 4.88 ratio.. 
Then add some low gears to the transfer case if you really wanna crawl a lot. 
3.66 final drive ratio will give an excellent hiway cruise since you don’t really wanna drive a flatty much above 65 mph due to handling.



Edited by oldtime - 26 Nov. 2021 at 1:02pm
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Thanks for all of the input.  Of course what I really want to do is also the most expensive.  Dana 30 for the front. Either 4.88 or 5.38 gears with an overdrive unit would give me an effective 3.66 or 4.03 final ratio with overdrive engaged if my math is correct.  That would put my crawl ratio at 76:1 or 84:1. ARB in the rear and an automatic up front.  We don't get snow very often here so I don't think the auto in the front would be an issue.

I'm putting it all together with the open 3.73s right now and will drive it first to see how it handles.  The crawl ratio as is would be 58:1.  Compared to the 37:1 in my stock 48, it would be a vast improvement.

Previous experience tells me I will end up going the most expensive route.  It the meantime, I may put an auto locker in the Dana 27 front and be on the lookout for a narrow dana 30 and save my pennies for the other goodies.
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thanks JeepFever. though i am not the OP, this info is a great help to me as the Jeep i am considering modifying does what Wilson does.

my '46 is stock (L134, D25/D41, T-90, D18) with acquired rust and bondo modifications. but i have tried to focus on reliable starting, running, braking, etc. i am running 7.0x16 tractor tires. primary use is driving around my property. i do have some interesting steep gullies, mud pits, stream crossings, opportunities for playing in the snow. i also have a nearby playground with some really challenging mixes of terrain and rock. i can get to this area driving up to 45 mph without stopping traffic. i also pull a trailer loaded with wood and pull a log splitter. i always do this alone. no highway driving or slickrock.

and i have a winch on front.

not to hijack here, but it seems like i should consider to keep well enough alone as some have stated, stay stock and rely on the winch to get me out of stuck. this may minimize tearing up the land to as pointed out by JeepFever.

Metcalf, would putting a lock rite up front in the D25 and leave rear open make sense from your experience?


Edited by bight - 26 Nov. 2021 at 11:11am
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Lots of great advice above,   but thought I would share my "tale of 2 Jeeps" Smile

1) the middle 20+ years of Wilson's life was 225,  T-90, D-18, OD,  5.38 gears, 10-spine LockRite in rear.
Pros:
 - lots of gear selections
 - rear auto locker is a huge improvement compared to "open" on twisty trails.  
Cons:
 - crawl ratio not that good
 - even with OD,  I wished I could shift one more gear on the highway
 - rear auto locker would tear up my yard and trails when making turns  (my property is "hilly")

2) past 3 years of Wilson's life is 225, SM420, D300, no OD,  3.73 gears,  TrueTrac LS diff in rear,  selectable locker in front.
Pros:
 - decent crawl ratio (69:1)   Rubicon tested  Smile
 - Nice highway ratio 3.73 . . so smooth and quiet at 55-60 mph,  225 has no problems
 - no tread marks in yard or trails . .  (locker would leave marks in turns,  open would spin one tire)
 - front locker is nice improvement on twisty trails
Cons:
 - in extreme rock crawling,  the LS in rear is basically open if really twisty
 - big rpm difference between tranny shifts . .  in both high or low range.   (5 speed tranny or OD would be nice to split gears)

There are so many variables of how we use our 2A's.    For my use,   as a "work Jeep" 98% percent of time,  and occasional Q8 trail vehicle,  I plan to stay with the current setup.  It seems to be the right compromise for me.

Edit:  I  re-read OP's post . .  I forgot to mention,   Wilson also has manual Saginaw steering.  When front selectable locker is engaged,  there is a VERY noticeable resistance to steering effort. 




Edited by JeepFever - 26 Nov. 2021 at 10:13am
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Originally posted by Y2GREY Y2GREY wrote:

The Power Wagon axles a great. I highly recommend running a Dynatrac hub kit after the first set of outer ujoints go at about 60k. I've had 3 and the all do the same no matter Dana or AAM.

Yeah a free spin kit would be great, I have a few other items ahead of it in line though.
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FWIW … The last six willys (3A’s + 3B’s) I built for myself or sold since 1983 have had POWR LOK’s  both front and rear. Zero problems and none have needed rebuilt since I installed them.

Technically these are not modified Jeeps they are built with standard stock and optional stock aka “Jeep Approved Special Equipment”.


Edited by oldtime - 25 Nov. 2021 at 10:35am
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