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Mark W. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov. 2021 at 3:11pm
My setup 134L (now a 7.2-1 compression 140 cu in) T-90A 30% OD D-18 30spline D-44 flanged with an Eaton E-Locker G2 5.38 gears

OD won't stay in direct and I haven't done anything in 4x4

Eventually I will build either a D30 or narrow up a D-44 to run an Eaton E Locker in the front as well.
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1948 2A Body Customized
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Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov. 2021 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by windyhill windyhill wrote:

Front locker in the snow sucks you will turn you wheels and plow sideways,  Yes a locker in the rear will tend to make your rear kick out, but that's at least more predictable.  3:73's suck on the trail,  I had them in a 67 with a v6, it did do great burnouts but was geared way high. swapped to 4:27's and it was a bit better.  for a trailer rig, 5:38's are the best.  I'm running the same v6, T-18, combo with 5:38's and an overdrive.  I thinks it's the best combo there is.  With lower gears alone you'll do way better off road. Add a selectable in the rear and see how it goes. I would never run a non selectable up front again.


My front automatic locker doesn't behave like that with the rear open, if I lock up the rear then it will push more. That is why I run a selectable rear locker. With the rear end open the front tires just go where I point them.
42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov. 2021 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by bight bight wrote:

thanks
Metcalf, would putting a lock rite up front in the D25 and leave rear open make sense from your experience?


I am firmly in the front locker first camp for that I do. I prefer front automatic lockers.  

The only real downside to a front automatic locker is a slightly stronger return to center feeling in the wheel under power. I think an automatic front locker does a better job doing it's lock-unlock-lock thing vs a locked selectable. There is definitely less steering resistance.

All this stuff falls into the nuance of the '3wd problem'. That is what happens when open/open isn't enough and spool/spool isn't maneuverable enough.


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov. 2021 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

My front automatic locker doesn't behave like that with the rear open, if I lock up the rear then it will push more. That is why I run a selectable rear locker. With the rear end open the front tires just go where I point them.

I think the biggest down-side to lockers in either axle in snow wheeling is that they let you spin both tires so it's hard not to slide sideways on a side hill.  Open/open will only spin one tire per axle so the other tire will help keep that end from going sideways.  But of course then you might not have enough traction to go anywhere.

I haven't used a front auto locker much, but I do think it would be less bad than a rear auto locker on side hills because you can turn the wheels uphill so they can try to crab their way in the direction you want to go, while an open diff in the rear could help keep the back end in line.


Edited by Nothing Special - 26 Nov. 2021 at 11:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov. 2021 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by JeepFever JeepFever wrote:

....  I forgot to mention,   Wilson also has manual Saginaw steering.  When front selectable locker is engaged,  there is a VERY noticeable resistance to steering effort. 

Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

....  The only real downside to a front automatic locker is a slightly stronger return to center feeling in the wheel under power. I think an automatic front locker does a better job doing it's lock-unlock-lock thing vs a locked selectable. There is definitely less steering resistance....

This all makes sense, and (mostly) jives with my experience with automatic and selectable lockers in the front.

If you are standing still and try to turn the steering wheel, one front tire will roll forward and the other will roll backward.  If you are moving forward essentially the same thing will happen, but when added to the forward speed it's just the inside tire turning slower than the outside.

With a locked selectable locker in the front the tires can't do that.  They are locked together so they have to turn the same speed, therefore it's really hard to turn the steering wheel unless you can spin a tire, or a tire is in the air or something.  You can unlock it to make the turn, but with it bound up like that the locker might not unlock that easily.  I've found I can get it to unlock pretty quickly by sawing the steering wheel back and forth, but it does take some work.

On the other hand, an auto locker never locks the two sides together.  It will never let either tire turn slower than the ring gear, but it will always let one tire turn faster.  So as you turn the steering wheel the auto locker freely lets the outside tire turn faster and there's essentially no extra drag in the steering.

But this is also where what Metcalf calls the slightly stronger return to center feel comes from.  If you are on the power in a turn the auto locker is only driving the inside tire, so it's trying to pull itself back straight.  In my limited experience this isn't a slightly stronger return to center, it's a very strong, very annoying thing.  Still, Metcalf has a lot more experience than me here.  And all of his arguments about how a front auto locker works better than a front selectable make perfect sense to me.  I think it's likely that in a trail vehicle I might very well value the better performance of a front auto locker enough that I'd be willing to put up with the annoyance.  I do hope to try that some time (with a rear selectable like he recommends)


Edited by Nothing Special - 26 Nov. 2021 at 11:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov. 2021 at 12:18am
Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

My front automatic locker doesn't behave like that with the rear open, if I lock up the rear then it will push more. That is why I run a selectable rear locker. With the rear end open the front tires just go where I point them.

I think the biggest down-side to lockers in either axle in snow wheeling is that they let you spin both tires so it's hard not to slide sideways on a side hill.  Open/open will only spin one tire per axle so the other tire will help keep that end from going sideways.  But of course then you might not have enough traction to go anywhere.

I haven't used a front auto locker much, but I do think it would be less bad than a rear auto locker on side hills because you can turn the wheels uphill so they can try to crab their way in the direction you want to go, while an open diff in the rear could help keep the back end in line.


I've done a lot of snow-wheeling, just like in any slick condition, the front axle wants to go where I point it. I've never been in a situation where the front automatic locker has gotten me in trouble and an open front axle has gotten further. 

I have noticed that rear locker use ( including only having a rear locker and front open ) will cause the vehicle to crab downhill much more. You have to be ready to drive around that. I like to call it the 'slip' angle. You get to a point where the slip angle gets so extreme the vehicle basically leaves 3-grooves across the slope.

The next level for a lot of this stuff is adding rear cutting brakes, a transfer case that can drive the front axle only, and even adding rear steering.


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov. 2021 at 12:29am
Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

Originally posted by JeepFever JeepFever wrote:

....  I forgot to mention,   Wilson also has manual Saginaw steering.  When front selectable locker is engaged,  there is a VERY noticeable resistance to steering effort. 

Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

....  The only real downside to a front automatic locker is a slightly stronger return to center feeling in the wheel under power. I think an automatic front locker does a better job doing it's lock-unlock-lock thing vs a locked selectable. There is definitely less steering resistance....

This all makes sense, and (mostly) jives with my experience with automatic and selectable lockers in the front.

If you are standing still and try to turn the steering wheel, one front tire will roll forward and the other will roll backward.  If you are moving forward essentially the same thing will happen, but when added to the forward speed it's just the inside tire turning slower than the outside.

With a locked selectable locker in the front the tires can't do that.  They are locked together so they have to turn the same speed, therefore it's really hard to turn the steering wheel unless you can spin a tire, or a tire is in the air or something.  You can unlock it to make the turn, but with it bound up like that the locker might not unlock that easily.  I've found I can get it to unlock pretty quickly by sawing the steering wheel back and forth, but it does take some work.

On the other hand, an auto locker never locks the two sides together.  It will never let either tire turn slower than the ring gear, but it will always let one tire turn faster.  So as you turn the steering wheel the auto locker freely lets the outside tire turn faster and there's essentially no extra drag in the steering.

But this is also where what Metcalf calls the slightly stronger return to center feel comes from.  If you are on the power in a turn the auto locker is only driving the inside tire, so it's trying to pull itself back straight.  In my limited experience this isn't a slightly stronger return to center, it's a very strong, very annoying thing.  Still, Metcalf has a lot more experience than me here.  And all of his arguments about how a front auto locker works better than a front selectable make perfect sense to me.  I think it's likely that in a trail vehicle I might very well value the better performance of a front auto locker enough that I'd be willing to put up with the annoyance.  I do hope to try that some time (with a rear selectable like he recommends)


My 'other' off-road vehicle is my #LX45 project, it is selectable/selectable/selectable. It is full time 4wd with selectable lockers in all 3 differentials. It is without a doubt more work to drive than my flat fender ( with automatic front and selectable rear ). I am always pushing buttons in the LX45.

With the rear locker open on the flatty, I find the added 'return to center' with the automatic locker almost non-existent, but I do have power steering. I also have SUPER wide tires and run them at ridiculously low pressures.  I find the front axle bind ( even with hydraulic assist steering ) on the LX45 with the front selectable locker much more annoying. The scrub forces with effectively a spool are MUCH higher. The front locker also doesn't want to disengage very quickly at all. You pretty much have to turn the complete opposite direction to get it to unlock. The rear selectable lockers on both vehicles are much more happy to unlock. I think this has something to do with the higher differential wheel speeds on the REAR axles the front.

I keep trying new things and watching for new technology, but for me, I keep coming back to the automatic front locker and rear selectable being the benchmark for how things should work all around.




42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov. 2021 at 9:50am
Seth, (windy hill)

Can you clarify what type of differential was in the rear?

Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

Originally posted by windyhill windyhill wrote:

Front locker in the snow sucks you will turn you wheels and plow sideways,  Yes a locker in the rear will tend to make your rear kick out, but that's at least more predictable.  3:73's suck on the trail,  I had them in a 67 with a v6, it did do great burnouts but was geared way high. swapped to 4:27's and it was a bit better.  for a trailer rig, 5:38's are the best.  I'm running the same v6, T-18, combo with 5:38's and an overdrive.  I thinks it's the best combo there is.  With lower gears alone you'll do way better off road. Add a selectable in the rear and see how it goes. I would never run a non selectable up front again.


My front automatic locker doesn't behave like that with the rear open, if I lock up the rear then it will push more. That is why I run a selectable rear locker. With the rear end open the front tires just go where I point them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov. 2021 at 12:20pm
thank you, thank you, and holy Jeepers gentleman. i think i just learned more in reading one forum page than in 20 years of trying feebly to understand this subject. you guys are shining the right lights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fltfndr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov. 2021 at 5:36pm
 If  you unlocked one of the front lockouts, wouldn't that solve the problem of running your rig in snow with an automatic mocker in the front?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov. 2021 at 8:52pm
Yes and no.  It might be helpful in some situations, especially if you also have a rear auto locker (and can't unlock a rear hub).  But I don't think it's very ideal.

It would give some weird handling and you'd be losing the use of one front tire for driving so it would be harder to make forward progress.

Plus, as Metcalf was pointing out, unless you have an automatic locker (or spool) in the rear, usually with a front automatic locker you can just turn the front wheels to point up hill and pretty much go where the Jeep is pointed.

But if you do have an auto locker in the rear and the whole Jeep is sliding sideways, unlocking one front hub would keep that tire from spinning, so it would help you track better.  And the locker would keep driving the other tire, so it's not like you'd be back to 2WD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov. 2021 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by Fltfndr Fltfndr wrote:

 If  you unlocked one of the front lockouts, wouldn't that solve the problem of running your rig in snow with an automatic mocker in the front?


I've played around with it, it didn't work very well.

That dead tire really kills you. An open diff is till 'trying' to drive both tires. That dead tire isn't doing anything. You can see this on the trail on vehicles that break a front axle. It really hinders the vehicle, especially when trying to climb up and over anything.


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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