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Oil Pressure and Temp Question

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Boomer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boomer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 1:20pm
might be a long shot but years ago I had a jeep that I bought that had sit for a number of years. Got the engine running and it too would heat up more then normal.  Water went throu the rad flowing good and air was pulling throu the rad.   Then one day I was out in the sticks with it and knocked off the muffler, I picked it up and drove back home.  It ran a lot cooler on the trip home so I cut the old muffler apart and it was almost plugged solid with rusted out baffles and a rats nest.  thinking that if the hot air from the motor cant get out throu the exchast system then it would put back pressure back into the engine.  After I put a new muffler on it ran at least 10 degrees cooler...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 4:40pm
That would have been the case when I started. Mine was full of walnuts. So was every other walnut-sized opening. 

But this is all new from the engine back. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2022 at 11:43pm
Just a quick update. I replaced all of the gauges with very high quality versions from Pete Debella. I started it for just a minute and verified the oil pressure gauge and the temperature mount in the block didn't leak.  No issues. 

When I changed the temp gauge I bottled the coolant that came out. This is definitely not the Mountain Dew colored 50/50 I put in 300 miles ago. 



And since the next thing for it is a trip on a trailer to the engine rebuilder, I pulled the oil filter. This is after 300 miles on Rotella and a bottle of Moly. The oil isn't dark though.  Is this the Moly in the filter or are both of these an indication of a blown head gasket? I ran a magnet through the oil canister and around the filter and didn't see any metal. But I know that's not the only indication.



I have a pit in my stomach over this whole thing.  And it's down for at least a month during our very short summer.

Thanks



Edited by jgodfrey - 16 May 2022 at 11:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2022 at 12:02am
I think for a reasonable cost you can send a sample of your oil and coolant for analysis.
Maybe $35 for each sample?
Could be money well spent, especially to baseline a fresh engine.
Here's one outfit of many. Maybe closer to home.

Good luck!


Edited by Ron D - 17 May 2022 at 12:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2022 at 4:39am
That is not a bad idea. Most of the aircraft owners I know do this every oil change @ 50 hours of operation or annually whichever comes first. It takes about 1/4 a cup of oil. Cheap insurance.

I would cut the filter element about 1/2" from the top & the bottom. Then I cut the wavy element vertically & squeeze it in a large vice to remove the residual oil. Then you can look for foreign objects in the pleats of the filter. I always do this on all my rigs at oil change time. It is amazing what I have found doing this simple test.

IHTH, Cpt Logger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drm101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2022 at 8:16am
It sounds like you are taking the motor out of the Jeep now, but if it's still in there I would check for a leak between the intake and block. A leak there can make it look like a "dead" cylinder at idle. The intake and exhaust seal at the block has to be very flat in order to seal all the intake/exhaust passages. It's a very common vacuum leak spot. If it runs good going down the road, but at idle misses a little, I always suspect this area. Make sure that when it's reassembled that the bolts that hold intake/exh together are loose, then the intake/exhaust are installed to block and bolts tightened, then tighten the bolts that hold the int/exh together. I think this is in the service manual. I usually then unbolt the assembly from the block and, using my handy granite slab and a piece of 220 grit, sand the mating area flat. You can also use a large file to insure it's flat. 
I don't like your oil pressure and would be inspecting all the bearings. If you take the engine apart, also make sure you're timing gear lube oiler has the newer, smaller 0.040" (I think) hole. The original is .070 so making the hole smaller helps raise oil pressure. 
I feel your pain. I had a my engine in/out a few times before it was right. Sometimes it just takes time and money and patience. 



Edited by drm101 - 17 May 2022 at 8:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2022 at 7:25pm
What are thoughts on the color of that oil filter and coolant. I don't see separation of oil and antifreeze,  but the oil itself not being that dark is super strange to me.

I think I'll do these tests suggested above. It will be good information for the shop when they start looking at it.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2022 at 8:54pm
What does the anti-freeze look like after it settled? I flushed mine a bit too aggressively and it converted the rust to metal. The anti-freeze looked similar to yours. The metal settled to the bottom in a silver layer. I decanted the brand new anti-freeze and poured it back in. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2022 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

What does the anti-freeze look like after it settled? I flushed mine a bit too aggressively and it converted the rust to metal. The anti-freeze looked similar to yours. The metal settled to the bottom in a silver layer. I decanted the brand new anti-freeze and poured it back in. 

Micah


It sat for a couple hours as I worked on other things.  I never saw it separate or have sediment settle in the bottom.  If this was a blown head gasket could that be the source of opacity? Same with the oil filter?  The oil isn't very dark, but if the filter is catching whatever it is maybe it's just doing it's job?

I ordered coolant and oil tests recommended by Ron D (Thanks). These will help the shop know for sure what they'll dealing with.  Oil, gas, metal, nothing, etc.

I also saw a video from Brian Hainer (metalshaper) today going through a nightmare of a rebuilt from another shop. I worried me that a lot of the details he does weren't done to mine. Of course I don't know that, but it certainly didn't feel like an engine that would run for 50 years if properly maintained.  I highly recommend the 2-part video. Looking back I wish he'd done mine. 

This is the first part. https://youtu.be/4V3_ePA5ha0 ;
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 10:43am
I was in a bad mood when I replied to this thread the other day, but it bothered me that a mechanic who wasn't sure what was wrong and even suspected a possible broken ring would say it is okay to drive it.

Back when you flooded it so much the washed cylinder walls could have caused enough drag to break a ring in an engine not fully broken in, but that kind of damage would give more obvious clues, so I am doubtful this has happened. 

Getting the oil and coolant analysis is a very good idea, and may give the mechanic more to work with.

These engines are prone to blown head gaskets after a rebuild which is why the head studs need to be re-torqued several times during break in, and there are some crappy head gaskets on the market too.

A blown head gasket doesn't always show oil and coolant intermixed depending on where the leak occurs. It will impact compression, and may cause a dead cylinder. Are you getting any steam out of the exhaust? 

I am picking up a recently "rebuilt" engine this weekend which suddenly lost some compression on the #3 cylinder. The owner wanted to convert to a V8 anyway so that gave him a reason to go ahead with the conversion. The mechanic who rebuilt the engine appears to be a good mechanic and he thinks it is the head gasket, I am hoping to be that lucky, but I may soon be going down the same rabbit hole as you.


Edited by Oldpappy - 18 May 2022 at 10:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Oldpappy Oldpappy wrote:

I was in a bad mood when I replied to this thread the other day, but it bothered me that a mechanic who wasn't sure what was wrong and even suspected a possible broken ring would say it is okay to drive it.

Back when you flooded it so much the washed cylinder walls could have caused enough drag to break a ring in an engine not fully broken in, but that kind of damage would give more obvious clues, so I am doubtful this has happened. 

Getting the oil and coolant analysis is a very good idea, and may give the mechanic more to work with.

These engines are prone to blown head gaskets after a rebuild which is why the head studs need to be re-torqued several times during break in, and there are some crappy head gaskets on the market too.

A blown head gasket doesn't always show oil and coolant intermixed depending on where the leak occurs. It will impact compression, and may cause a dead cylinder. Are you getting any steam out of the exhaust? 

I am picking up a recently "rebuilt" engine this weekend which suddenly lost some compression on the #3 cylinder. The owner wanted to convert to a V8 anyway so that gave him a reason to go ahead with the conversion. The mechanic who rebuilt the engine appears to be a good mechanic and he thinks it is the head gasket, I am hoping to be that lucky, but I may soon be going down the same rabbit hole as you.

Thanks Oldpappy - I always value your take on these things.

I have ordered a new oil pump and will bring it to him to install.  I sent Brian Hainer an email on this situation, and he responded, recommending a new carb at the top of the list.  He said that with the worn bushings in the linkage it will never run right.

So, I will also be ordering a new carburetor.  There are several places that sell "show quality" rebuilt carbs including bushings, etc.  So, I am stuck in analysis paralysis about where to get the best one.  I know there are some guys on here and Facebook that do this, but I feel like I should get one from a source with a warranty, etc.  Walck's and Pete Debella both have them, so that is kind of what I was thinking, but I am open-minded about a source.

Believe me, if this is just a blown head gasket, I will run up and down the hall with joy.  I did torque the nuts twice to 65 pounds.  I checked them before I took it to the shop and they were all still at 65.

Something tells me it is more serious though.  I can't say why I think that, but it just isn't the sewing machine I remember.  Paul Wirth did the paint and he mentioned that it didn't sound right either.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 12:00pm
Well, it is easy to get worried about stuff like this until the cause is known. With all the ups and downs you have suffered on this build I hope it isn't something more serious.

I have two Jeeps out there right now which I got cheaply because they supposedly needed engine rebuilds. Turned out neither one had anything serious wrong with them and it didn't take very much to put them back to running "like a sewing machine". 

Were I wanting a good carburetor, and didn't know how to rebuild one I would go with "Scoutpilot" who has a large following on this and other forums. 

These old carburetors just about always have worn out throttle bodies and need bushings installed in the bore for the throttle shaft. When worn out you have an air leak that no amount of tuning will correct.

If you do buy another carburetor I might be interested in your old one for a core. 
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 1:56pm
Scoutpilot and Brian Hainer. both are proven and highly respected.

if you want it done right, go to them. they actually care about their product.

if you read this forum much, you will see there are few other as respected sources.


Edited by bight - 18 May 2022 at 2:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by bight bight wrote:

Scoutpilot and Brian Hainer. both are proven and highly respected.

if you want it done right, go to them. they actually care about their product.

if you read this forum much, you will see there are few other respected sources.

Thanks - I reached out to Scoutpilot, so I will wait for his response.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2022 at 4:52pm
I had a great conversation with Scoutpilot this morning.  He was on his way to the Willys Reunion.  I had planned on going to this before the issues came up with this engine.

He gave me a lot of valuable information about the carburetor, but also about the engine, and teh rebuild process.  I was pretty naive when I took this engine to be rebuilt.  If I only knew then what I know now.

It is still a week or so before the shop will get my engine in.  I have the new oil pump but Rick said to not worry about the carb until that is taken care of.  He will rebuild my current carb and send me a video of it running on his engine.  Pretty valuable stuff.

It sounds likely that my engine will need to come out.  The oil and coolant tests just arrived, so I will see what turns up there.

Thanks to everyone that recommended reaching out to Rick.  He is a wealth of information.


Edited by jgodfrey - 19 May 2022 at 5:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2022 at 11:21am
Well, the oil and coolant analysis reports are back.  I am not an expert at this, but the engine is set to go back to the shop that did the rebuild next Wednesday.



The comments on the oil suggest the low oil pressure has caused damage to the bearings.  This oil pump was not replaced as part of the rebuild.  I have a new one ready to go in, but it seems like it is too late.

Here is the coolant report.  It is a little more confusing because it doesn't highlight a glaring issue.  My gut tells me it's dirty from being flushed through a freshly rebuilt engine.  But I don't know that that level of phosphates means.  I have a request from the lab to give me an outline of what that could be.  Also, they state the equipment type is wrong, but there was no selection for this engine at all.  So they told me to reference it in the notes.




Edited by jgodfrey - 27 May 2022 at 11:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qcanuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2022 at 9:47am
Just an observation on this great image of a nicely restored engine.  IMHO Teflon tape should not be used on fuel lines. it deteriorates and then logs filters and can get into your jets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2022 at 10:17am
I'm not sure if it's Teflon tape, but the carb is going to Scoutpilot as soon as I get the engine sorted.  So it's coming off soon. 

Thanks
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