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Still chasing high temperatures

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jgodfrey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2022 at 1:53pm
Interesting.  I hadnt thought of that. But you'd smell that, right? Or hear it dragging?

The parking brake isn't attached to the cane yet, because the bracket needs work, but the lever spring is in place. I know that one isn't dragging because I rebuilt the transfer case and got it dialed in.

The brakes work well, don't pull or drag. And pushing this thing around the garage is easy, so they don't feel like they are dragging.

The only thing I notice with the brakes is a slight "tick tick tick" in the rear when I push hard on the pedal.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wfopete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2022 at 9:37pm
While replacing a head gasket, I was flushing my block out and a old freeze plug came out.  Looked like it had been roaming around inside the block for years.   Never had a cooling problem but I suppose if it managed to find it's way to a major coolant passage and obstruct the flow...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2022 at 10:15pm
I found some hickory nuts in one once.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2022 at 12:11am
Originally posted by wfopete wfopete wrote:

While replacing a head gasket, I was flushing my block out and a old freeze plug came out.  Looked like it had been roaming around inside the block for years.   Never had a cooling problem but I suppose if it managed to find it's way to a major coolant passage and obstruct the flow...

I asked the rebuilder if a galley plug or something was missed and he said there really isn't anything that would cause these issues. He said if it wasn't there you'd have no coolant pressure. Or something like that. 

I took my dad for a ride today and he commented that it never ran that hot.

Today I put the thermostat back in and it definitely made a difference in recovery. But going down the road at 35-40 and it still climbs up to 205.

I noticed a few bubbles the other day from the number 2 spark plug. I'll address that, but I am at a total loss as to how an engine gets totally rebuilt, hot tanked, decked, sleeved, etc. and suddenly runs hot.

I've drained this thing so many times I've lost count.  I shouldn't have to settle for these temps, but I'm at the end of fixing a long list of "potential" culprits.

Likely unrelated, but what the heck. Someone might see the following picture and see that it's a silver bullet to this issue. I had period-correct plug wires with no boots on the plug. Because I was sick of getting shocked, and as part of the arching troubleshooting, I got this set from Midwest Military. They are very high quality, but look what my jeep did to them within a couple hours. All but #1 are split wide open. 






Edited by jgodfrey - 03 July 2022 at 12:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2022 at 2:50am
Just curious, what spark plugs are you using. Are they of the correct heat range? Did you ever look for an intake leak? I would guess that Scoutpilot would have addressed that area, did he?

Your shotgun solution has left us with no real idea as to what was wrong or what was right. Thus, I am throwing ideas at you instead of doing any real troubleshooting, as that seems to be what you want.

I sincerely hope this helps, Matt W.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2022 at 7:55am
Originally posted by jgodfrey jgodfrey wrote:

The brakes work well, don't pull or drag. And pushing this thing around the garage is easy, so they don't feel like they are dragging.

The only thing I notice with the brakes is a slight "tick tick tick" in the rear when I push hard on the pedal.



I hadn’t thought of it either but now that it is out there… have you tried pushing it around the garage when it’s at operating temperature?

Another question comes to mind along similar lines. How does the engine feel while turning by hand when it’s at operating temperature? Heat tightens up some clearances but it should not be hard to turn. Little bit different animal but I have seen aircraft engines gets very tight when hot. One would almost lock up. I think it lasted about 10 hours after that overhaul. The point is if it is getting too tight there is more friction and that generates heat too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2022 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by cpt logger cpt logger wrote:

Just curious, what spark plugs are you using. Are they of the correct heat range? Did you ever look for an intake leak? I would guess that Scoutpilot would have addressed that area, did he?

Your shotgun solution has left us with no real idea as to what was wrong or what was right. Thus, I am throwing ideas at you instead of doing any real troubleshooting, as that seems to be what you want.

I sincerely hope this helps, Matt W.
Yah. It's been a journey.  I know it appears like a shotgun approach, but I went down a list staying with the easiest and moving to the more complicated remedies. 

The plugs are Auotlite ASP 295's

Yes, there was a leak in the intake. They had broken an ear on the intake on reassembly. So that got replaced. Right now, thanks to Rick, timing seems dialed in.

At its simplest, the radiator and block appear to be clean as a whistle.  The pumpnis brand new, and the thermostat is functioning well.  

That's why it's frustrating to still see these temps.


Edited by jgodfrey - 03 July 2022 at 12:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wfopete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2022 at 12:17pm

Maybe it's out there already, but is there a G.P.M. spec that states how much coolant should be moved through the block?  

You probably have already swapped out the H2O pump but wouldn't be funny if the pump's impeller was on backwards or you had some funky pump that was designed to rotate the opposite of the standard OEM vehicle pump, like in some third world industrial application?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2022 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by wfopete wfopete wrote:


Maybe it's out there already, but is there a G.P.M. spec that states how much coolant should be moved through the block?  

You probably have already swapped out the H2O pump but wouldn't be funny if the pump's impeller was on backwards or you had some funky pump that was designed to rotate the opposite of the standard OEM vehicle pump, like in some third world industrial application?

The water pump checked out. It moves a lot of coolant. 

If I keep it under 30 it stays under 200. Once I go over 30 and the temp goes over 200 it hovers there, or even higher,  the rest of the drive. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2022 at 9:57pm
I did not read back through the whole thread so this may have already been addressed.  Regarding your rebuild, how much "over" are your cylinder bores? I only ask because some folks here have had similar heat issues when the bores have been cut to the max.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2022 at 10:17pm
Yep, I have seen engines bored to .080 that heat issues. I won't go over .060 on one, but I think Jason said this one been sleeved, so should be back at standard bore?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2022 at 11:09pm
I think I saw this engine is sleeved so no over bore per say.


My money is on the gauge But then I am a stickler for really high quality gauges Stewart Warner, Auto Gage, Dixco etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2022 at 11:17pm
What pressure radiator cap do you have?
I believe stock is 4-pounds? Maybe 7?
Known good cap?

Those brand new copper core spark plug wire boots are splitting already? Call for a refund.

What does "bubbles from the #2 spark plug" mean? Coolant?

Not related, and only because you showed it  ---  I'm not a fan of short head studs with nuts not fully engaged (threaded on).
Supposed to have a couple of threads showing above the nut for proper torque holding.

Good luck!


Edited by Ron D - 03 July 2022 at 11:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2022 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by Oldpappy Oldpappy wrote:

Yep, I have seen engines bored to .080 that heat issues. I won't go over .060 on one, but I think Jason said this one been sleeved, so should be back at standard bore?

That's correct.  New sleeves, pistons, you nabbed it - is probably new.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2022 at 12:13am
Originally posted by Ron D Ron D wrote:

What pressure radiator cap do you have?
I believe stock is 4-pounds? Maybe 7?
Known good cap?

Those brand new copper core spark plug wire boots are splitting already? Call for a refund.

What does "bubbles from the #2 spark plug" mean? Coolant?

Not related, and only because you showed it  ---  I'm not a fan of short head studs with nuts not fully engaged (threaded on).
Supposed to have a couple of threads showing above the nut for proper torque holding.

Good luck!
It has a NoS 4lb cap for an MB.

The tiny bubbles around the #2 spark plug are not coolant. I assume it's just pressure from the cylinder - air/fuel and exhaust. I read that it's common and just a little corrosion under the crush washer. I'll smooth that out 

As far as the studs, now you've hit a nerve.  I asked the builder about those when I first saw it reassembled.  His answer was, "that's the way they were."

Which of course is the most ridiculous answer.  They are all different lengths and had been in there for at least the 45 years we've owned it.

When asked why he didn't put new studs in, he asked why. I said, "old, stretched, corroded, cheap", etc. In fact, the #2 stud leaked, and instead of telling me he'd fix it, he just told me the method I should use to fix it. It took me 3 attempts with a new stud ($2 from across the street from his shop).  It absolutely drives me nuts. Even just the look of them screams "lack of attention to detail."  I've torqued them twice and verified they are still at 65lbs a couple weeks ago.

Which is why I'm essentially chasing these temps on my own. As you read through this thread you'll see he has no interest in figuring this out and says the temps are "fine." He also thought the oil pump was fine when it was pushing 2lbs at idle and 20 at 40 mph. That has since been replaced and pressure is now great. 

So, I'm a novice doing everything I can to figure it out with the help of everyone here. It just doesn't add up 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2022 at 8:44pm
I give up. I'm so discouraged. I've tried everything and my temps are still spiking to North of 220 degrees within a couple miles. If I baby it and stay below 30 it will stay in the range of 180. But as soon as I take it to 35-40 it jumps to 210, then spikes to 235 or higher at a stop light. If I constantly Rev it I can get it to 215.

Just in case a fresh set of eyes starts with this reply, here's what I've done.

I have a NoS fan, a new radiator with a shroud and the extension, NoS distributor, high quality copper core wires from George Baxter (I've actually tried 3 set of wires), a new water pump, a new 4lb cap, new thermostat (I've replaced it twice during all my troubleshooting), and I'm running Evans waterless coolant (to try to increase the boiling point until I figured out rhe issue.) I had the oil and the coolant analyzed and they found minor amounts of tin and lead that the lab attributed to break in, and nothing significant in the coolant.

I flushed the radiator 3 times with cooling system cleaner and didn't have any sediment at all. I then flushed it a 4th time with the Evans prep to get the water out of the system.  During all the flushes I even pulled the water pump and took it to Midwest Military (where I bought it) and he said it looked perfect.  But I have no way of nowing how much water it's actually moving through the block.

I also pulled the radiator and took it to a radiator specialist who flushed it forward and reverse and said it was in great shape. It's a reproduction radiator from Army Jeep Parts built the same way as the original - copper cores, etc. It fit perfectly with no modification.

I changed the plugs (which looked ok), and set the points and timed it using an old school tach/dwell and a vacuum gauge.  I'm getting 20-21 vacuum and it's idling at 650 rpm.

It runs great until I get into the 210 range, the it misses once every few seconds at idle. At stop lights it will spike the needle at 220, and never goes back below 200 again.

I've used an infrared to check temps and they are a few degrees up from the gauge (which I swapped twice - putting in the highest quality I could find from Pete Debella).

When it gets hot I get arching all around the distributor.  In troubleshooting this I changed the cap twice, the plug wires twice, and eventually the entire distributor. But it only archs when it gets hot.

I'm ready to walk away from it - its heartbreaking. I don't know of anyone locally that could look at it. At this point I'd be happy to pay anyone who could figure it out just so I could go on some stress free rides with my dad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote outlw21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2022 at 9:19pm
Read thru this rather quickly and didn't see any mention of a stuck heat riser. They usually freeze in the heat the carb and intake manifold position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2022 at 9:44pm
I understand your frustration, you've done an admirable job of trying a lot of things and seemingly none of them have solved this problem. I'm certainly no mechanic but I keep coming back to this:

"I've used an infrared to check temps and they are a few degrees up from the gauge (which I swapped twice - putting in the highest quality I could find from Pete Debella)."

 With all due respect to Pete Debella, I don't think that NASCAR or Formula 1 teams equip their race cars with Pete Debella's finest reproduction temperature gauges. They would use a gauge from a company that specializes in building gauges that accurately measure engine functions like Stuart Warner, Autometer, or the like.

One of my jeeps has one of these imported, reproduction temp gauges and I have seen that gauge's needle go past the numbers and around back to 0. Did it boil over and spew coolant or steam everywhere? It did not. So this gauge looks the part, but its accuracy at the upper end is suspect.  

I bought a mercury thermometer from a scientific supply house that I use for verifying temps that is certified against a known standard. This is what I use for checking thermostats in a pan on the stove or dipping it into the radiator. You mentioned trying an infrared thermometer to scan the outside of the engine; not sure this is the same as measuring liquid coolant. Is this a certified unit?  

It's been mentioned before, but if it was me I would try a higher quality gauge from a company that makes just gauges. You may discover that you really don't have a temperature problem after all.



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