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Still chasing high temperatures

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jgodfrey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2022 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by outlw21 outlw21 wrote:

Read thru this rather quickly and didn't see any mention of a stuck heat riser. They usually freeze in the heat the carb and intake manifold position.

Yep. The heat riser works perfectly. It has a new spring and the butterfly opens and closes all the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2022 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by otto otto wrote:

I understand your frustration, you've done an admirable job of trying a lot of things and seemingly none of them have solved this problem. I'm certainly no mechanic but I keep coming back to this:

"I've used an infrared to check temps and they are a few degrees up from the gauge (which I swapped twice - putting in the highest quality I could find from Pete Debella)."

 With all due respect to Pete Debella, I don't think that NASCAR or Formula 1 teams equip their race cars with Pete Debella's finest reproduction temperature gauges. They would use a gauge from a company that specializes in building gauges that accurately measure engine functions like Stuart Warner, Autometer, or the like.

One of my jeeps has one of these imported, reproduction temp gauges and I have seen that gauge's needle go past the numbers and around back to 0. Did it boil over and spew coolant or steam everywhere? It did not. So this gauge looks the part, but its accuracy at the upper end is suspect.  

I bought a mercury thermometer from a scientific supply house that I use for verifying temps that is certified against a known standard. This is what I use for checking thermostats in a pan on the stove or dipping it into the radiator. You mentioned trying an infrared thermometer to scan the outside of the engine; not sure this is the same as measuring liquid coolant. Is this a certified unit?  

It's been mentioned before, but if it was me I would try a higher quality gauge from a company that makes just gauges. You may discover that you really don't have a temperature problem after all.


I totally get that. Which is why I started with the simplest and cheapest fixes. The cap, the thermostat,  and the gauge.

But the infrared is showing temps slightly higher than the gauge. And by that I mean between 5-15. For example, when it was showing 210 the infrared showed maybe 220.  But when it was pegged at 220 the infrared showed 243. I took that as "the gauge can't go higher." If the engine wasn't actually getting that hot I would just mentally add or subtract temps to calibrate it in my head.

But the engine is definitely getting very hot. And when it does the arching starts and it never shakes the heat.

I feel like I've done everything. I can't figure out anything else to try. Other than taking it to the place that rebuilt it and asking them to troubleshoot it. But I'd be talking to a guy that thinks it's fine. It's not.

There has to be something else going on. But what?

It only does it under load. Meaning if I start it and let it idle, or putz around the neighborhood, it will never get over 170ish.  It idled in the driveway yesterday for at least an hour and it never went over 175.  But get it to 35-45 mph and it moves up like the second hand in a clock.

I pulled over today when the needle spiked and took infrared temps all over the block. I've also taken temps at the top and bottom of the radiator. On the inlet and outlet pipes, etc. It's around 20 degrees cooler on the bottom, but somehow that's not making through the block enough to cool it down.

I'm out of ideas and frustrated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dasvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2022 at 11:01pm
Is the fan the correct one? 
  Sometimes fans used on power plants have a backwards pitch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2022 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by dasvis dasvis wrote:

Is the fan the correct one? 
  Sometimes fans used on power plants have a backwards pitch.

Yes. I had inadvertently hammered some of the pitch out of it, so I bought a NoS fan.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2022 at 11:19pm
Did you leave that rag in the radiator hose? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2022 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by Oldpappy Oldpappy wrote:

Did you leave that rag in the radiator hose? Wink

At this point... I wish that was it. But no.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2022 at 11:39pm
how tight is your fan belt?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2022 at 11:45pm
Originally posted by Mark W. Mark W. wrote:

how tight is your fan belt?

Tight. Maybe 1/2" deflection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpoole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2022 at 9:34am
Have you measured your total/overall ignition advance at higher rpms, and the rpms you are likely running at load when things get hot?

How confident are you in your higher rpm/load air fuel ratio? (ie. is the carb solid/fresh w no intake vac leaks possible?)

Too much ignition advance and too little fuel can make an otherwise happy engine overheat quickly.  I've tested/confirmed this many times as I pushed the tune on engines to get max. power. 

If the distributor is set to add the correct amount of advance then setting the idle timing is all you have to do but it's possible that the distributor is adding more advance and that even though idle timing is correct your overall advance is too high.  Similarly your idle air/fuel ratio can be right but a small/clogged main jet or other issue can mean that your primary air/fuel ratio is lean.  Both of these are relatively easy to resolve if you do find them to be issues.

Easy ways to experiment with these to get a sense if either are relevant, before you invest in new tools or real efforts are:

-take some of your advance out as a test, perhaps experimenting with a few settings (a few degrees at a time) and paying attention to how the engine power/performance and temps respond as you remove advance
-add a bit of choke to fatten up the mixture while monitoring how it impacts how the engine sounds/runs and power levels 

If your temp. monitoring setup is responsive enough you should start to see drops in temps pretty quickly while operating (20sec to 1 min) with these temporary tweaks if advance or air/fuel ratios are the issue under load.  A long, flat road where you can repeat tests with consistent conditions can be helpful.  You don't have to be super precise here when just trying to determine if these adjustments make a difference.  If one of these changes makes the engine run really poorly under load/high rpm (you can pretty much ignore idle perf. as long as it runs during these tests, I'd increase idle to keep it from dying and focus on high rpm tune only for these tests) then you have likely gone too far or in the wrong direction.  Of course note your timing starting position and initial carb adjustments so that it's easy to go back where you were after you experiment with less advance.

I've seen cases where dialing timing, then a/f ratio is all that's needed to get operating temps to the desired levels.  There could be other issues though so these are just items that are pretty easy to test that could help you narrow in on what's actually going on here. 

If too much overall advance is the issue you should be able to adjust your distributors overall advance limits inside the dizzy so that you can get both the idle and overall advance that you want.  If running lean is the issue rebuilding/replacing the carb and confirming no intake leaks could be good next steps unless you want to get an air/fuel ratio gauge and try to tune what you have.  Note that timing and air fuel ratio interplay to a certain extent but on a Willys you won't likely get to the level of fine tuning where that's very relevant.

Beyond the above I'd also consider removing the thermostat until you figure this out, just to remove it from the mix of possible factors.  I'd consider checking valve adjustments as well if you haven't recently (at least to help you avoid burning any) and finally I'd try to find a place to run repeatable tests and start noting your findings so you can notice if you make changes that help.

Good job on the troubleshooting and monitoring so far.  Sounds like you've avoided damaging the engine which could have been easy in this case and hopefully with some fresh ideas you'll find a way to get that thing running cool.  Also, your frustration is clear but for some of us an issue like this is a big part of the fun and is a great chance to work through testing/understanding the engine systems and problem solving.  Maybe you can find some enjoyment in the process and take the pressure to fix it quickly out of the equation?

Good luck


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2022 at 11:31am
  A lot of what jpoole said makes good sense and got me to thinking. He mentions vacuum leaks and restrictions inside the carb as possibilities, and made me think about one of my favorite issues, the fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump. The pump may be delivering enough fuel at idle and low speeds but it takes more fuel to run at high speeds and if the pump can’t deliver enough fuel it can run lean and heat up. The tank-to-pump line must be in good shape, no kinks or obstructions, and no hose connections clamped onto straight-ended steel line. These connections can allow air to leak into the fuel delivery system and cause problems. My first jeep fuel delivery problem was one that would allow air to leak in at times. At those times, just before it actually quit running, the engine would actually run better for a short time (a lean mix makes more power) but would heat up quickly. 
  A foreign object in the gas tank that partially blocks the pickup tube would be a problem, and any rubbed, worn, rusted or patched places in the fuel delivery line could allow a leak. Yes, you can have a leak in that line, in the hose at the pump, or at the brass fittings on the pump, that can allow air to enter the system without allowing fuel to visibly leak out. Oh, yes, then there’s always the gas cap. If air can’t enter the tank, fuel can’t get out. 
  You might just have a fuel delivery problem that causes the engine to run lean at high speeds without causing it to actually run completely out of fuel. 
BW 


Edited by Bruce W - 07 July 2022 at 11:39am
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2022 at 12:54pm
Jpoole and Bruce - great information, and a list of considerations. The needle on the vacuum bounces back and forth when intune it, but it stays between 18-21ish.  

In my garage by myself, and without these air/fuel/carb/timing skills I lack the ability to really know what I'm seeing.

I can retard it a bit and see how it does. I can also start over with my timing process via tach/dwell and vacuum gauge (Thanks scoutpilot).

But here's another potential wrinkle...

I have been going back and forth via email with Brian Hainer. The first thing he had me do is pull the plugs and turn it over from the crank nut. He said it should move easily all the way around without a change in resistance. 

It does not...

It is stiff for 1/3, easy for the next 1/3, the stiff again for the last 1/3.

That is when it's cold. I'm going to put the plugs back in (picture below) and warm it up, then try it again.

Edit: I tried to turn ot hot and it was a lot harder. And it still had a loose spot where it turned easier, then right back into pretty heavy resistance. 







Edited by jgodfrey - 07 July 2022 at 2:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Michaeltru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2022 at 1:12pm
That is what your plugs look like after running?  Engine shut off after running?   No idling.  Just engine shut off after running?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2022 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by Michaeltru Michaeltru wrote:

That is what your plugs look like after running?  Engine shut off after running?   No idling.  Just engine shut off after running?

These plugs have about 900 miles on them.  They were put in by the rebuilder. They were taken out cold.

From left to right, #1, #2, #3, #4.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2022 at 3:02pm
I'm not sure how updates to posts show up, so I'll put it here as well.

I drove it with fresh plugs to the rebuilder (of course he was at lunch). 

It shot up to 220+ degrees within two miles at 40 mph.  I also have a slight bulge in the upper radiator coupler hose (I have steel pipes with rubber sections on each end). It's the one connecting to the top of the radiator.

These temps are getting worse.  I let it idle at the shop for a few .instead and it eventually came back down to 180. But again, the 5 mile drive he was back to 220+.

I pulled the plugs when I got home and tried to turn it at the crank. It was significantly more difficult.  2/3 of the rotation is hard, and 1/3 goes easy.

Now. That sounds like serious internal trouble to me. How do I have this conversation with the builder without getting gaslight or blamed? 

Update: That didn't go well. The builder said 220 is fine, and that on a day like today (85°) it will never go lower than that.  As soon as I said I've owned it for 45 years and it never went over 190 he lost his mind.  Screaming and swearing at me. Telling me to get it out of his parking lot, and that he'll never touch it again.

I toiled over that conversation and literally walked on eggshells the entire time. Like I needed that.

I just tried to list all of the things I've tried and that it has gotten significantly worse over the last 2 weeks. I'm not even able to go 2 miles without hitting 220, and that's normal?  The engine lopes at that temp and clearly doesn't want to run.

It was doing this in front of his eyes. But he insisted on grabbing his infrared and telling my gauge was off by 20 degrees. It's not. He was measuring at the thermostat housing. I was measuring at the point of the block where the gauge goes in.

I got him calmed down and just begged him to pull the plugs and turn it manually. He said he would but only after it cooled down. I told him he should feel the difference between hot and cold and he wouldn't touch it.

I apologized for upsetting him and his words were "we didn't F that up."

When I tried to show him the boots on the plug wires melted he yelled at the top of his lungs "that would take 500 degrees, and that never got that hot." I pulled one to show him it was melted to the top of a brand new plug and he just called the wires a PoS.  I said it was the third set from 3 different vendors. No reaction.

He said by asking for help here that everyone else has put their hands on it. I reiterated that all I did was cooling system, distributor, and timing. He still said it was my fault.

Like I need any of this. 


Edited by jgodfrey - 07 July 2022 at 5:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2022 at 4:37pm
  Does it ever boil over, (gush out) around the radiator cap when you stop after it heats up? I have been following this thread since I am having the same symptom with a fresh rebuild. Mine doesn't boil over and runs between 200-220. I thought it fixed itself, but that was wishful thinking.  

     Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2022 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by WeeWilly WeeWilly wrote:

  Does it ever boil over, (gush out) around the radiator cap when you stop after it heats up? I have been following this thread since I am having the same symptom with a fresh rebuild. Mine doesn't boil over and runs between 200-220. I thought it fixed itself, but that was wishful thinking.  

     Jim
Not since I switched to Evans waterless coolant. But I'm not familiar enough with that stuff to know how the pressure works with it. It boils at 375, so it shouldn't boil over 

But it runs horribly when it's that hot.

Check out the update I posted today.  Brian Hainer had me pull the plugs and turn it over at the crank pulley. That,  and taking it the rebuilder to point that out couldn't have gone worse. 




Edited by jgodfrey - 07 July 2022 at 5:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2022 at 6:05pm
With all the problems you have had with that shop and the quality of the work, combined with the incident of washing the rings and now having resistance in rotation, I would seriously consider pulling that motor out and taking it to another shop. I believe you said the compression was low and this never ending problem with overheating seems to me that you need to start over with an engine you believe to be in sound condition. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2022 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

With all the problems you have had with that shop and the quality of the work, combined with the incident of washing the rings and now having resistance in rotation, I would seriously consider pulling that motor out and taking it to another shop. I believe you said the compression was low and this never ending problem with overheating seems to me that you need to start over with an engine you believe to be in sound condition. 

Micah

I would seriously consider that.  But there isn't anyone else local that I know of that knows these engines.  I've asked around and the list is short. One of the restoration shops in southern MN even told me they wish they had another local option, but don't know of any.  His issue with this shop is that everything he gets from him leaks.  He says it's because he fundamentally believes they should.  But that's another topic. 

I'd cut bait if it meant I could have a reliable engine.  Everyone I know that I'd trust (through this forum) or Brian Hainer are not close and booked up all summer. And the way my dads health is declining, if he's still with us next summer he likely wouldn't be able to go for a ride.  I can't take him now because he's on oxygen and I can't afford to be stuck on the side of the road. 

So, this is more than an old Jeep to me.




Edited by jgodfrey - 07 July 2022 at 6:24pm
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