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Won't start, like no fuel but it has fuel

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MikeG1949 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Sep. 2022 at 5:50pm
History: 48 Willys that had been converted to 8 volt was starting hard, like grind, stop, grind, stop sputter, start. On the advice of the forum, I converted it back to 6 Volt from 8 volt and found that we had been running completely off of the battery, that the regulator/generator was not functioning.  Since the battery always had a tender on it, it had been running off of the 8 Volt battery.  A new regulator was matched to generator by an auto electric repair shop and new 6 V battery was installed. On advice of forum, I timed it with a vacuum meter.  It ran good both hot and cold.  But it still started hard and would not start if hot.  On the advice of the forum, I then had the starter rebuilt at the auto electric shop. At the same time, I wanted to try to stop the oil leaks, part of which seemed to come from the oil pan seal.  When I got the rebuilt starter back, I removed the oil pan and replaced the oil seal.  At that time, I had the front of the Willys jacked about 3 inches up.  When I finished putting the seal in, I tried to start it and it would not start.  I removed the stands and got it level and it started but I quickly shut it off because in the process of replacing the oil pan either my cheap Harbor Freight torque wrench failed or my brain did, and I twisted off one bolt head, leaving the threaded part in the block.  I was afraid I might leak oil at that point, so after it started, I very quickly shut it down.  When I lifted the hood, I notice a slight smell that says, 'something electrical got very hot or burned'.  Prior to all of this I put in new points, condenser, rotor and cap.  
To check if ignition was working, I removed a spark plug, grounded it and saw a spark.  I operated it without the rotor, cap etc. on the distributor and saw a spark on the points.  I have used starting fluid, and the accelerator pump is pushing gas and I can see gas entering when I press the accelerator, but it will not fire.  I have spark, fuel and air. but it will not start.  With the new starter it does appear to crank much better.  Also, years ago we added a solenoid that has three poles that I think was for a CJ3a. so I am not using the floor starter switch.  As a side note, when I turn the ignition switch to the on position, not the start position, the gas gauge needle lifts a bit and pulses slightly, but it does not show the true level of gas in the tank. I had not noticed that prior to all of this.   I checked the plug wires to make sure that they were located in the distributor cap in the proper order, and they are.    I contacted my local Jeep dealer and explained the problem with the broken bolt, and they said they could get it out.  When I described the not starting problem and all the information above, I was told, "I'm sorry but we charge $120 per hour and there is no one here that would know how to work on it and it would take a long time for us to learn."  So they passed, and I did too.  Any ideas?   The good news is that the starter appears to be working well.
Mike G 1948 S/N 197198
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJ2A60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct. 2022 at 11:39am
I'm sorry you're having this problem.

You should not see a fat yellow spark across the points; only a small blue one. In fact, you want the spark to be a nice bright blue everywhere.

So if you are seeing a big yellow arc across the points, double-check your work on the condenser. That's its job; to smooth the arc across the points, to increase their life. Some condensers have always been bad out of the box, but since they have been mostly made by Chinese capital, the problem has gotten worse. This is why you always save your old points/condenser; if replacing them didn't fix the problem, the old ones are probably still good, so you have spares.

If your spark is yellow, not blue, check the connections going to and coming from the coil. Look for voltage drops between the battery and the coil - with 6 volt systems, since system voltage is so low to begin with, only a half a volt of drop can cause hard starting, and a volt is a serious issue.

Finally, with Kettering systems, there is an odd effect that many have noticed; if there is a sympathetic arc occurring elsewhere in the system, it can rob energy from the main arc across the plug. I once had an F-150 which ran great, but occasionally would be very hard to start. No mechanic could find the problem, I think mostly because it was intermittent.

Finally one night we got stranded at the entrance to Padre Island National Seashore. I looked and looked and couldn't figure out why the truck wouldn't start. After a while my wife happened to be looking around under the hood while I was cranking fruitlessly and she noticed a little arc that was occurring at the solenoid/battery connection.

Closer examination revealed that when I had replaced a bad battery cable, I had not fully tightened the nut on the stud, because the threads were slightly messed up and I stopped torquing when I felt resistance. Chasing the threads and fully tightening the nut made the truck start so reliably that years later when the starter died, I drove the truck for weeks by parking it at the top of a hill and roll-starting it; it ALWAYS started every time.

So, have someone else crank the Jeep in the dark while you look around the engine compartment for a sympathetic arc somewhere in the engine compartment.

Finally, there's this; as already noted, the voltage is inherently relatively low in a 6 volt system and voltage drops of as little as half a volt can be problematic. On many (most?) older 6 volt vehicles with mysterious electrical problems, the owner has tried everything but checking the ground connections. Make sure that you have proper ground connections and that there is no voltage drop across them!

Good luck. I have two older vehicles with 6 volt systems; I see no need to convert them to 12 volts.


Edited by CJ2A60 - 03 Oct. 2022 at 11:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeG1949 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2022 at 8:17am
Thank you for this information.  What you're saying aligns well with what I am experiencing.  I'm hoping to get some time to pursue this today and will report back afterwards.  Thanks again for sharing.
Mike G 1948 S/N 197198
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeG1949 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2022 at 8:21am
.

Edited by MikeG1949 - 05 Oct. 2022 at 1:45pm
Mike G 1948 S/N 197198
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeG1949 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 1:43pm
Still no fire.  I now have an sperate 6 volt battery, fully charged, hooked directly to the + side of the coil and the 6 volt battery in the Willys isolated to just the starter.  Same result not starting.  Also, with the extra six volt battery connected just to the starter, my spark at the plug is still not blue but is yellow.  I did have one cylinder maybe attempt to fire and I smelled a bit of ozone.  From the disconnect wire from the + side of the coil when it is hanging loose as I used the added battery to charge the + side of the coil, the voltage reads 5.25 Volt as the starter is bring operated.  Ideas?

Edited by MikeG1949 - 05 Oct. 2022 at 1:45pm
Mike G 1948 S/N 197198
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 2:12pm
 Do you have another 6 volt coil to try.  Sounds like a weak coil or a coil with a built in resistor.

   Jim
47 CJ2A (Ranch Hand) 48 CJ2A, 48 Willys truck, T3C 3782, M274 (Military Mule)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 2:39pm
How many condensers have you tried? Did you try the old one? IME, many new condensers are bad straight out of the box.

It used to be that "You get what you pay for" meaning if you cheep out you get poorer quality parts. Today, even if you spend top dollar, many of the parts are of quite poor quality. If your new points & condenser are "made in China" or " made in India" even though you payed more for them, they are mostly junk. The manufacturers in those countries have very poor quality control, if they have any quality control at all. Buying from a parts store with a good name does not protect one from this issue. Many of the parts stores sell Chinese & Indian crap. Now do not get me wrong, other countries make junk as well, these are the main ones I am seeing making crap parts right now.

I have used up my supply of German Bosch condensers & am now working on my stash of Mexican made Bosch condensers. They seem to be of good quality. Mind you I bought them all in a lot at an auction about ten years ago, so I do not know about what they make today. I hope they still make quality parts.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeG1949 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 3:44pm
I am learning things the hard way.  I did not save the condenser   I'll get a new one. Any ideas if I could get better quality online?
Mike G 1948 S/N 197198
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeG1949 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 4:30pm
My bad.  I did not have the nuts tightened on the coil.  now 6+V in and 6+ V out.  But I did call NAPA and they confirmed that the coil I bought does have an internal resistor and that is the one they show for it.  After tightening the nuts, I still get a yellow spark.  Have not done any work on the condenser yet.  Should I not have a coil with a resister in it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 5:00pm
 You shouldn't be using a coil with resistor if you are using a 6 volt battery.

   Jim
47 CJ2A (Ranch Hand) 48 CJ2A, 48 Willys truck, T3C 3782, M274 (Military Mule)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeG1949 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 6:36pm
Now I am confused.  Kaiser-Willys says NEW Replacement Ignition Coil in 6 Volt.

Direct replacement for 6 volt systems. Proper replacement for early 6 volt systems. Ready for install!! Comes with internal resistor already built in for easy wiring.

Application:
4-134 engine
6-161 engine
6-226 engine

Fits:
41-45 MB
41-45 GPW
46-49 CJ-2A
49-53 CJ-3A
53-58 CJ-3B
55-58 CJ-5
46-58 Truck
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48-51 Jeepster
Mike G 1948 S/N 197198
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 7:38pm
  DO NOT use Kaiser-Willys as a reference resource. You will get wrong information. Whoever writes their copy for their catalog quite often displays that he/she does not know anything about the subject part. A six-volt coil does not need a resistor, internal or external. Theirs probably doesn’t have one, regardless of what the description says, but I would buy one at my FLAPS just to be sure. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 9:08pm
Go to Napa, or Tractor Supply, either should have a six volt coil without an internal resistor. 

If the coil you have now has a resistor that would cause a voltage drop which may be the reason you are getting a weak spark. It is not the only possible cause, but it sounds like it is one you have identified. 
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeG1949 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 9:26pm
I'll look around.  I got this one from NAPA and today they confirmed it had one internally
Mike G 1948 S/N 197198
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeG1949 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 9:26pm
What's my FLAPS?
Mike G 1948 S/N 197198
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2022 at 10:13pm
"Friendly Local Auto Parts Store" if I am not mistaken. 
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct. 2022 at 2:05am
Yep that is what it means.

NAPA is usually good, however you want to talk to the old fart, not the young bucks. The young ones are a whiz with the computer, but they have no clue as to whether the computer is right about what it says. Heck, they do not even have a clue as to the differences between a six volt battery & a twelve volt battery they look the same to them. 

I do not trust computers. Way back in the dark ages, before the home computer was available, my sister, a computer engineer, said that computers make things much faster. They make it so that if you have an error in the input, it can screw up the entire world in a nano-second. Think about that for a day or two.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct. 2022 at 9:05am
The information on a computer is only as accurate as the person who entered it. Then there are common every day typos…
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