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Dana 18 Shift Rail Seals

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cyates176FA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 3:39pm
Appreciate the dedication! I’ll try to dig-up the seals I took out. I have a couple boxes I’ve used for the rebuilds to hold the parts being replaced.

The housing is off, and both myself and the shop came up with similar measurements, that the seals are ~0.050 larger than the bore. My guess is that it’s either been repaired at some point, or was just a cap with an incorrectly cut bore. Shop should have the seals they ordered first/ middle of the week. We’ll see what he says once he gets them pressed in. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BD1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2023 at 3:55pm
I’m thinking that after several sets of seals from different sources couldn’t be seated that I’d have honed the bores in the cap out a little until anyone’s seal could be seated.
BD
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cyates176FA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2023 at 4:06pm
I don’t have the tools to do that myself, and the machine shops around here that I’ve worked with before are running a decent backlog. I’ll see what the shop says when the seals he ordered come in this week.

If it still just won’t work, I’ll replace the cap, as my patience for having two seals hold up an entire project will run out, and I’ll just replace the part.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 1:35pm
Just an update on this thread. 

The shop measured and ordered seals to fit the bore; but they aren't fitting the shaft to their liking.

At this point, would I be better off just purchasing a new front bearing cap and seals to match? KW has them for $175, and I would like to get this project finished up. 

The rebuilder is still willing to order other seals; but I'm not sure that I want to wait around for the cat-and-mouse game to play out. I trust the shop to do the job right, so it isn't a matter of doubting their ability or anything. 

Feel free to tell me to quit being so impatient, haha! I would prefer to use the original cap, but don't want this project to linger any longer than it already has. 

Any advice is appreciated. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 2:50pm
I have never ran into a cap with bores too small for the seals, never even heard of such a thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 2:59pm
Agreed. I’ve not come across this in all my searches in the forums. The bore measures .040 too small for the stock seals, once he got it cleaned up and measured. 

So I’m sort of at a crossroads. I myself have tried a few sets of seals with no luck, the shop couldn’t get the stock seals in with their tools, and now it’s turning into a trial and error search for seals that fit both the bore and the shaft. 

Should I just get a new cap and go from there? It’s a bit more work, with obviously some money invested. But I can’t imagine I’d run into the same issue more than once. On the other hand, if the shop finds seals that fit, I can’t imagine I’ll be needing to tear into this transfer case for the foreseeable future. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 3:37pm
Dana only made those caps one way no matter what vehicle the transfer case went into. Something is definitely off on this one. 

Edited by Jeff J - 29 Mar. 2023 at 5:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 3:40pm
Agreed. Shop thinks the most likely cause is a casting error. He said it looked original, and perhaps it was just a bad cast. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 3:46pm
 If you have a machine shop around your area they could be bored to the correct size.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 3:54pm
I can ask around. Last I checked they’re pretty much all at least a month out with backlog. I can check again though. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 3:56pm
  If it was cast wrong or machined wrong, Dana would not have used it. They would have had the same trouble and they would not hold up production for a defective part, they would have tossed it and grabbed another one. 
  I’d bet my lunch that the one you buy from K-W will not be new, it’ll be a used part with crusty old seals or none, and the Chi-com seals you’re trying to use wont fit in it any better. 
  You keep saying that the bores are .040” smaller than the seals, what is the diameter of the bore? I’d like to check it against some caps that I have. 
BW 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 4:10pm
To be fair, quality management in the 40s may not be what it is today. Not trying to be argumentative; but I would have to imagine that sub-par parts slipped through. The seals I took out were pretty sturdy, so perhaps the clearance issue didn’t matter as much as it does with newer, less robust seals. 

Bore: 1.0750
Seal OD: 1.1285

Those were the measurements I got. I don’t have the shops measurements; but it should be close. If yours measure the same, that’ll be interesting. I can certainly see me having issues pressing the seals in; but a transmission shop having the same issue would be odd. 

As far as the seals I’ve tried, it’s been National, Crown, and I believe SKF. Not sure where all of those are made; but I got the Crown seals from Quarter Ton, and they’ve been pretty good quality on other stuff I’ve bought. Oddly all the other seals that came with the Novak kit (Crown) all fit fine. 

I wouldn’t expect the cap sold by KW to be new - but used parts seem to be part of what we have to deal with and live with when it comes to these old Jeeps. FWIW, the NOS and take-off parts I’ve purchased from KW and QTM in the past seem to have been cleaned and inspected before shipping. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 5:08pm
Wait until Bruce measures one of his, and if he finds a difference, and you want to try another cap, you can come pull one off one of the transfer cases I have laying around. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 7:42pm
  Well. I found two bare caps, and figured they should represent a fair sample. I didn’t want to try to measure around the shafts. It was difficult to get a constant measurement, I don’t like measuring with a dial caliper, and I don’t have an inside mic that small. But here’s what I got: The bores on both, not really well cleaned, measured 1.124” - 1.126”. I guess we can call them 1.125”. I measured two seals, both # C-A 2469. One was loose, the other came out of an unopened Crown gasket/seal kit. Both 1.129”.  The seals do have a bit of a rolled edge on the inner side, and started into the bores easily. 
  Is it possible there is a sleeve or part of an old seal left in your bores? It’s obvious now that the holes are too small, but I’m still not ready to accept the “poor quality control “ explanation. 
BW 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 7:57pm
I agree that a part with undersized bores would not have made it through the assembly line. They would not waste production time on a part that did not fit, it would be tossed into a reject bin. 

I don't have a tool for doing it, but it would be interesting to measure the inside of the shell for one of these seals and see whether that accounts for the difference noted.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 8:43pm
BW, I appreciate you giving me a sanity check on the measurements! 

I looked and didn’t see a sleeve, and the shop didn’t see one either. The seals came out pretty cleanly, without too much damage to the seal itself. I wasn’t able to find them; but I’ll check again to see if they’re in one of the Tupperware I used when I disassembled it. 

That being said, I don’t know what, outside of an odd casting issue, it could be - assuming no sleeve. But even a sleeve would’ve been used to get the bore back to the original size, right (like a sleeve for a yoke)? I’ll see what the shop comes back with - but I’m inclined to trust their measurements and assessment of the part. I do agree that it may be far fetched that it was poor quality management - but I’ve seen the type of work that passes for good 15 minutes before shift change. 

Two set of seals were the same CA 2469 part number out of a crown gasket set (1 from Novak, and 1 from KW).  

Regardless of how it ended up with the smaller bore, that’s where I’m at. 

Oldpappy, I may have to take you up on that offer. I booked next week off work so that I could finish up this project (and a couple others). I’ll PM you once I have the final word from the shop, which should be Friday. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 9:01pm
  Casting has nothing to do with it. The part is cast and then all critical surfaces and bores are machined to spec. Those bores are machined to size, probably by the same tool that drilled the rod bores. You want to talk hypotheticals? Here’s one. Sometime in the past, a seal manufacturer found a need for a specific sized seal. They already had one that had the right ID but a too-small OD. “Let’s just put a sleeve on the seal we have to make it work in that larger bore!” When you removed the seals, the sleeves stayed in place, and time, rust, dirt and grease hid the hair’s-width line that would reveal it. Maybe not, but entirely possible. More likely in my mind than sending the assembly line runner down to the parts store to get some smaller seals. As you’ve already found, those smaller seals probably don’t exist. 
BW 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2023 at 9:24pm
Casting or machining, either way it’s not right. Not willing to argue semantics, hypotheticals, or Dana’s TQM practices in 1947. Neither I nor the shop saw a sleeve - and the seals came out pretty much intact. For all I know it could’ve had filler metal added and then bored at some point to the incorrect size. A lot can happen between 1947 and now. 

We’ll see what the final verdict is from the shop. I’ll update again once I hear back. 
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