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making own tie rods RH + LH or RH only

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Barry S View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 12:35pm
I'm doing a Saginaw steering conversion on Grasshopper (47 CJ2A with D25 ft. axle), as well as a tie rod flip.  I'm using a 2 hole knuckle set up and I'll be making my own tie rod and drag link.  I'm planning to use M38 (3/4") ends with 1" ID DOM tube.  Here's my question:  Do I use a RH and LH thread on the ends so adjustments can be made by spinning the tube, or here's an idea - RH thread everywhere.  Advantages: Only have to carry one type as backup on the trail.  If the jam nuts worked loose the adjustment would stay the same.  Disadvantages:  Must disconnect one end to adjust - but normally only have to adjust on initial set up anyway. 

Thoughts?

Thanks!
-Barry
1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729
194? CJ2A 04893/194304
1946 CJ2A 46745
1946 CJ2A 36723
1945 MB   413665
1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor
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oldtime View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 12:44pm
Just my opinion but tie rod ends tend to wear over time but seldom break so are spares really needed ?
I would opt for LH and RH ends.
I’m not big on carrying all manner of spares.
I’m big on doing maintainance and keeping the Jeep in very good condition.


Edited by oldtime - 18 Mar. 2023 at 12:52pm
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
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Bruce W View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 1:16pm
  That’s pretty much what I was going to say. I don’t carry spare tie rod ends so I guess it doesn’t matter. But as an old alinement man and racer, I want it to adjust the way it should. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 3:23pm
3x on Ken's comments.  You do not want to be removing TRE's to adjust the toe-in, most especially out in the boonies in the mud, if you bend the tie rod or drag link.

I'm another that carries a minimum of spare parts.  Main drive gear/nut/cover to replace the OD and a pair of drive flanges are the only real items in addition to the usual McGyver kit with hose, belts, fluids, bolts, etc.

You could save a little time and money shortening an intermediate (72-75) CJ tie rod.  You only need one tap that way.  The 11/16-18 TRE's are plenty strong for most CJ's, most especially sort of stock versions.
1955 3B: 441sbc,AGE 4 speed transmission, Teralow D18w/Warn OD, 4.11:1 D44's/ARB's, glass tub & fenders, aluminum hood/grill, 8274, York OBA, Premier Power Welder; 67 CJ5: 225,T86AA, D18, 4.88's, OD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 4:08pm
You can probably buy a custom length tie rod for around what the taps and material for making your own will cost.

I also agree you don't want RH threads both ends which would make it a real PIA if you had to adjust in field due to damage, and a lessor PIA for initial set up too. 
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barry S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 4:54pm
All great advice! RH and LH ends it is. I really appreciate the input.  All those years as Scoutmaster preaching "Be Prepared" makes me sometimes overthink things.  I tend to treat every outing like going to the moon - plan for anything and everything!  

I am going to stay with the heavier TREs and tubes as well as the tie rod flip because I spend a good share of my time on the rocks.  Each time out I try to find ways to make my little rig a little more "rock worthy".  I did investigate using Heim joints but didn't like that they were open to water, mud, and sand.

Also, Ken, thanks for all the work you shared about Saginaw conversions.  I know that was an old thread but that valuable info is timeless and helped me a lot!  I'll post my steering project on my thread - I've got to scramble to have it ready for the Spring Willys Reunion.  I'm hoping to add a little twist - using a Volvo electric power steering pump so I don't rob any HP from my Go Devil!

-Barry


1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729
194? CJ2A 04893/194304
1946 CJ2A 46745
1946 CJ2A 36723
1945 MB   413665
1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor
Bantam Trailer T3-C 25487
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 6:09pm
Left and right for sure. 

I've used Ballistic Fab for all sorts of fab parts for more than a decade. They will have all the tubing and inserts you could need to get this done. 

I used 1 1/4 tubing with there inserts for my tie rod and drag link. Likely overkill. But I don't fear breaking them. 

On the crawler I used 1 1/2 tubing and 7/8ths joints and it's been killer. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by nofender nofender wrote:

I used 1 1/4 tubing with there inserts for my tie rod and drag link. Likely overkill. But I don't fear breaking them.

I did the same thing with my 3B.  Any good steel yard should have DOM tube.  A number of places market the weld-in threaded inserts.  Mine came from Ruff Stuff.  Barns is also a source.  The down side of using that heavy tubing is the space needed for it, and the weight.

On a light CJ, overkill for sure.
1955 3B: 441sbc,AGE 4 speed transmission, Teralow D18w/Warn OD, 4.11:1 D44's/ARB's, glass tub & fenders, aluminum hood/grill, 8274, York OBA, Premier Power Welder; 67 CJ5: 225,T86AA, D18, 4.88's, OD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 7:53pm
I've been contemplating doing the tie rod flip on the two hole knuckles my jeep has. Please share how you go about the tapered connection- using inserts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barry S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 8:50pm
Here's what I've found so far:  Tie rod ends for M38 and M38A1 that have the standard taper to fit the closed knuckles (5/8" at the top of the hole and just over 1/2" at the bottom) and have the larger 3/4" (16 TPI?) threaded shanks.  809190 LH Thread and 809191 RH Thread.

For the tube inserts Barnes carries weld in ones that are 1" OD and have 3/4" threads inside.  They have them in RH and LH as well as the matching jam nuts. 

The tapered inserts were the hardest to find.  TMR Customs in Ontario is the only source I could find.  Their insert is exactly what I was looking for - straight 3/4"OD to slip into the knuckle and tapered hole to match the TRE.  Here's a link.


nofender did this exact project a few years ago and was kind enough to post it.  Here's a link to his photos.


Thanks Andy!!

I have stock springs and shackles.  Today I jacked up both sides to full stuff and checked clearance of the position of the flipped tie rod to the frame - 1 1/4" on the drivers side and only 3/4" on the passenger side.  I may have to do something there.

-Barry
1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729
194? CJ2A 04893/194304
1946 CJ2A 46745
1946 CJ2A 36723
1945 MB   413665
1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor
Bantam Trailer T3-C 25487
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2023 at 7:30am
I am in the minority here for sure. I try to use as many common components in my off road builds as possible. I also try to keep things light. Generally adjusting the toe isn't like changing the oil, so for me right hand threads on both ends is fine. I carry only one spare tie rod end for trail repairs and it will fit either side.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barry S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2023 at 10:53am
That made me smile Bob - looks like we think the same!  Two things I've learned about these old Willys:  There's usually not just one way to do anything, and whatever I think up, someone has thought of it first!LOL

-Barry
1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729
194? CJ2A 04893/194304
1946 CJ2A 46745
1946 CJ2A 36723
1945 MB   413665
1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor
Bantam Trailer T3-C 25487
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2023 at 1:54pm
If one uses only right hand tie rod ends, They do not get the full advantage of having infinite adjustment. They only get the TPI, (Treads Per Inch). Thus, if you are using 3/8-20 thread pitch, you only get adjustment 0.05 inch steps of adjustment. While using Left and Right hand tie rods gives one infinite adjustment. I do not know how important infinite adjustment is, but I think that it is better then the above. 

I have never broken a tie rod end on anything. I have seen & done plenty of off road driving. Maybe I have just plain dumb luck?

My brother once bought an old 1962 Chevy pickup that had worn out everything, including tie rod ends. One came apart on the drive home. We used baling wire to hold it together for the remaining part of the slow trip home.

Of all of the spare parts I carry, spare ties rod are not two of them. Baling wire is in the tool kit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2023 at 3:06pm
That’s exactly what I was thinking; bailing wire most likely can hold a tie rod in place well enough for emergency uses.
Not to mention a hundred other field repairs.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2023 at 5:04pm
Hmm….guess I’m confused on the decision to trade true adjustability for the ability to carry just one spare. I mean I see the logic. But carrying and extra pound or two as a spare can’t be that bad. To me that’s a worthwhile trade. 

Just my .02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spinnas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2023 at 9:41am
Something else about all RH, even if you have a loose clamp/jam nut it will not unthread. RH/LH can unthread if loose. Additionally, I run all RH on everything I have even owned/built for steering, suspension links, sway bar links, etc. 1 spare, no need to wonder about which is the LH side, no worrying about anything coming loose and if it does no biggie. Set it an forget it, if your tow changes, guess what, YOU HAVE SOMETHING LOOSE that needs rebuilt/adjusted/addressed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2023 at 9:56am
With all RH ends you need to carry a pickle fork in order to adjust toe.
Having to remove the rod ends is certainly the biggest hurdle on most tie rod repairs.
It’s not uncommon to have the taper stud just spin when you try to loose or tighten the castle nut.
I’ve had some that were so bad about wanting to spin as I tried to remove the castle nut; it was much easier just to torch them off.


Edited by oldtime - 20 Mar. 2023 at 10:03am
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2023 at 11:44am
  Logger had a good point- if the threads are 16 threads per inch, one revolution of an end will change the length of the tie rod by 1/16 inch. It’s roughly 6 inches from the king-pin centerline to the tie rod attachment point, and 14 inches or a bit over, from the king-pin centerline to the OD of a 6.00-16 tire. That 1/16” at the tie rod will become a little over 1/8” at the tread. Double this because when you move the front of the tire, the rear of it also moves. This makes the smallest toe-in adjustment you can make in this way a little over 1/4”, nearly 5/16”. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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