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Electric Fuel Pump

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Beach Bum View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 June 2023 at 12:36pm
I was fortunate enough to get an opportunity to do the FCT this year and I’m wondering about an electric fuel pump. Should I or shouldn’t I, and if I should, what pump? To be clear, I’m not against doing it at all, I just want some opinions. If I do install one, should I use a pressure regulator? Which one? I am very much against anything made in china but it’s getting dam hard to find anything that’s not. FWIW I mostly have experience with the Carter electric pump. Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beach Bum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2023 at 12:42pm
I should be more clear, it’s the Rotary Vane Carter that I have the most experience with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3A Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2023 at 1:11pm
Why do you think you need an electric pump?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2023 at 1:27pm
Why are you wanting an electric fuel pump? I can see it's use if your Jeep vapor locks easily.

As you know the Rotary Vane Carter will not allow fuel to flow through it if it fails for any reason.

When I install an electric fuel pump, I also leave the mechanical pump in if possible. I use the electric pump to prime the carburetor then I run the rig on the mechanical one. This makes starting after a long "rest" much easier. I have also used one for high altitude use to prevent vapor lock. The Rotary Vane Carter does not allow for either of these uses. IME, an electric fuel pump will fail sooner then a mechanical one will.

I get a vibrating type pump so that fuel can flow through it. I get one that I can set the fuel pressure down to 4 PSI. Otherwise I would use a pressure regulator.

I am sure that you are aware that the electric pump needs to be as close to the fuel tank as possible. I am including this so that future readers will know as well.

I hear you on the China crap.

IHTH, Cpt Logger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2023 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by 3A Steve 3A Steve wrote:

Why do you think you need an electric pump?

Cpt. Logger repeated the question, and I’ll third it. 
If your fuel system is in good shape you will not need it. Your tank-to-pump line must be one piece, with no hose/clamp splices. The stock steel line works best, again, WITH NO SPLICES. The hose on the inlet side of the fuel pump should be a factory crimped hose with flared fittings on both ends, no clamps. Your pump inlet fitting must be tight in the pump. It always seems to tighten up facing the wrong way, and we are afraid to give it another turn. My cure: cross your fingers, grit your teeth, maybe say a short prayer, and tighten it another turn. I haven’t broken a pump this way yet. If your pump has a glass bowl on top of it, it must have a good gasket, and it too must be tight, but refrain from putting pliers on it. All of these things, not done right, can cause air leaks into the fuel system, which decreases fuel flow and contributes to vapor lock. From the pump to the carb, problems are usually easy to see and fix. If you wish to run a fual filter, this is where it should be, and keep it clean. If you have a clean tank and buy clean fuel you will have no trouble. 
One other thing - muffler shops love to put the muffler directly under the gas tank - not good, it heats the fuel. The muffler needs to be in the rear, where Willys put it. 
  These are all things that I have learned at the FCT and on other runs. I’ve certainly had my share of fuel problems and learned from them and others’. Yes, I have been “that guy”, but not lately. (Knock on Wood!)
  Others have learned as well, and we dont have nearly the kind of fuel problems that we used to have. My jeeps and many others do not use or need an electric pump. One of the last problems we had, was caused by an electric pump that quit working, and as Cpt Logger said, the mechanical pump couldn’t draw through it. 
Just make it right, and you’ll be fine. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpoole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2023 at 5:04pm
Agree with the above and a sorted, stock system should have no issues.  If you are close to a complete and sorted stock system just take the steps needed to get there.  Finding a pump with high quality internals/materials would be a priority for me as I've had plenty of trouble with failed diaphragms, leaks, etc. on cheaper pumps and likely because of ethanol in fuel, etc.

For my old, ratty flat fenders I prefer the simple/rattle type electric fuel pumps and have had good luck with them for years.  My flat fenders typically sit for months between runs and I like how easy it is to prime the carb with an electric pump.  I also ran an electric pump for the atomic 4 on my old sailboat which is a similar setup and it did well with winters off, etc...  I install the pumps near or below the low fuel height and put filter(s) after the pumps typically.

One perk of the electric pumps that will vary based on the setup is that if fuel flow to the pump is restricted the pump will start to make a rattling noise.  If you play with the height of the pump relative to the fuel tank for instance you can have the pump act like an audible alert when fuel starts to run low.  I've found this useful on boats and jeeps though I'm sure it sounds like a bad idea to the purists :)  Another perk is that depending on how you install it, it can be easier to change an electric pump out.  The electric pumps also seem likely to have a longer shelf life and to handle rattling around in a spares bin for years before installation better than some of the engine driven pumps would. 

One other non-conventional thing that I do on old jeeps if they are running a boat tank is install an inline fuel pump bulb in the fuel line near the drivers seat.  This was a ubiquitous mod at the hunting camp when I was growing up where all of the jeeps/etc. ran boat tanks that could be hauled home in the off-season or for a fill (camp was on a fairly remote island).  The bulb can help prime the fuel pump (engine or electric) quickly after hooking up the fuel tank.  I'm sure this is also frowned upon by most/many folks here but want to mention is because it's certainly been a solid/useful mod in my experience.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3A Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2023 at 8:22pm
When you are in Colorado for the CFCT make sure you use the non-ethanol gas from the sugar shack. 
That will help avoiding vapor lock. Of course, you can always use the close pin method that Pewe is always pushing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2023 at 8:49am
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

. . .
If your fuel system is in good shape you will not need it. Your tank-to-pump line must be one piece, with no hose/clamp splices. The stock steel line works best, again, WITH NO SPLICES. The hose on the inlet side of the fuel pump should be a factory crimped hose with flared fittings on both ends, no clamps. Your pump inlet fitting must be tight in the pump.  . . .  All of these things, not done right, can cause air leaks into the fuel system, which decreases fuel flow and contributes to vapor lock. 

This post comes at a good time for me.   I remembered seeing this advice earlier,  probably in a CFCT thread.  (Now I don't have to search for it).     Bruce,  I am guessing that it was probably you. Smile    If I remember in that earlier post you talked a little more on the air leaks ->  that even though fuel may not leak out,  air can sometimes leak in?    ie. I have no gas leaks in any of the lines.

I am experiencing what I think is vapor lock,  and against the advice above,  have lots of hose clamps. Embarrassed  My plan is to redo the fuel line and see what happens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2023 at 10:16am
That is a good plan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beach Bum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2023 at 11:53am
To be clear, I did not say that I needed it. I was asking IF I needed it. I specifically referred to the FCT which will take us over 13,000 ft. And Mike the host has an electric pump on his Jeep. To be honest, I did not know that fuel would not pass thru a vane pump if it was not running, I did not know that the impeller was sealed. Now that I know that, and IF I decide to go with an electric pump I will have to learn a few things. There’s some great information here and I thank y’all for helping me out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beach Bum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2023 at 12:01pm
I would appreciate any recommendations for a specific pump (keepin in mind I don’t want no china crap, I wouldn’t trust that to get me around the block). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2023 at 12:11pm
  That’s right, you asked IF you need it. And I told you you dont. I also told you what it takes to make it work without one. 
  Mikes Blue Mule has a Pinto engine with GM TBI. That one HAS to have one. You’ll see some modified jeeps at FCT, some of which need an electric pump. You’ll also see a lot of stock jeeps, some with electric pumps as a backup. Some of those need the electric, only because it itself causes the problem that it solves - hose-spliced joints that leak air into the inlet line. Stock jeeps with a good inlet side in the fuel system, such as mine, as I described, have no trouble. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TERRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2023 at 2:25pm
Agree with Bruce.
The problem I see, is that today's highly volatile fuels will boil over and flood the carb when the engine is shut down hot. The carb heat soaks causing this.Letting the engine cool some before shut down, or letting it idle may help.
But standard practice of holding the throttle open while cranking the engine clears this excess fuel pretty quickly.
This problem has nothing to do with the fuel pump.
BOULDER 48 2A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpoole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2023 at 6:13pm
This is one that I've had good experiences with:


These same pumps can be found for less at other sources.  There are a few variants by Facet but for our applications the smaller units should be sufficient.

I've always used the above pump as a primary/solo pump and not in association with a mechanical pump. 

I've seen the plastic pumps leak and split.  This has always been in cases where the pumps were obviously old, likely decades old.  The combination of heat, fuel exposure and possibly also UV exposure caused the end of the pump that is glued/sealed in place during assembly to come loose.  If one of these seems to be leaking push/pull/pry on the ends to and if they are on their way out the glue-on end will likely come loose(r).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beach Bum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2023 at 6:16pm
I’m just doing my best to not be “That Guy”. Yes Bruce, I apologize, you did answer my question, I missed that the first time around.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Michaeltru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2023 at 6:23pm
This is in a catalog from an antique ford parts place. Not sure if it’s an airtex like I’ve seen mentioned on old car forums. 6V or 12V

Mike in AZ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2023 at 11:52pm
only making a recommendation for a pump.. not getting involved in the debate.

The Holley Red electric pump in combo with the Holley 1-4 psi pressure regulator. Has been used in street and mild race applications for decades. Mount it head down at the level of the bottom of the tank on the floor riser. Mount a filter between the tank and the pump and another between the pump and the carb. This is not an inexpensive option but a very reliable one. If your worried put a second one in your tool box and you will never use it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2023 at 6:33am
Bruce's advice is spot on.  We've solved several vapor lock problems over the years with a good, sealed, steel fuel line.  We've even done well with a continuous rubber fuel line.  And to be honest, we've also solved(?), or overcome, some vapor lock problems with the addition of an electric pump putting out about 3-4 psi.  But the quickest way to reduce the vapor lock problem has been using fuel without alcohol in it.  3A Steve said it right, using the non-alcohol gas will solve most of the problems that occur.  The problem that I see there is that you can't always get non-alcohol gas.  And alcohol infused gas is everywhere. So build your fuel system right and tight and you should eliminate your vapor lock problems. 

I run an electric pump because I need 12 psi for my EFI on the 2.0L Pinto engine that's in my M38.  I used a mechanical fuel pump and a rubber fuel line when I had a carb.  If you do have to use clamps on your fuel line, be sure you're using small clamps, and don't over tighten them.  Over tightening a clamp can cause a wrinkle in the rubber hose, and that may allow air into the line. 
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