Frame Issue |
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Battle Hook 960
Member Joined: 28 Aug. 2005 Location: Central Indiana Status: Offline Points: 75 |
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Posted: 13 Nov. 2005 at 3:25pm |
Hello Hello All, I am working on a 2A and have noticed some features that don't look 2A. Any ideas on what has happened here? Edited by russnj - 21 Nov. 2005 at 8:32pm |
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1945 CJ-2A 10224
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Mike Gardner
Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Lewes Beach Del Status: Offline Points: 3550 |
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well the only thing i can see is what looks to be a mb or gpw 1/2 of the gun mount? other than that it's to dark to do a photo to frame comparison.?
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1945 CJ-2A 11713
1995 YJ 4.0 |
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GaryArf
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 21 July 2005 Location: Baxter MN Status: Offline Points: 3905 |
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The battery tray looks right, thou only half there. The rear looks like the inner channel has been mostly removed and a couple of reinforcements welded on? I don't see a "gun mount" as they are in the middle of the frame.
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Mike Gardner
Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Lewes Beach Del Status: Offline Points: 3550 |
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if that 1/2 round thig isn't a gun mount what is it?
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1945 CJ-2A 11713
1995 YJ 4.0 |
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GaryArf
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 21 July 2005 Location: Baxter MN Status: Offline Points: 3905 |
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Mike, your right I guess the site was so spread out I missed that. I beleive you are correct. Another thing I see is the trans. crossmember has been lowered. The most interesting thing is the frame tag location, that location was used on the first few 100 or so 2a's, and looking at the front axle in the battery tray pic it shows the bell crank attatched to the front crossmember like a 2a. Maybe the rear half is an MB? Can you see anywhere it was spliced? Does it have or does it look like it had a drawbar? |
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Ritt
Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Bethel CT Status: Offline Points: 1989 |
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The crossmember may have been dropped for a better drive line angle as when installing a suspension lift. Looks like about an inch.
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Rit
1948 2A, "RAISIN COOKIES THAT LOOK LIKE CHOCOLATE CHIP COOKIES ARE THE MAIN REASON I HAVE TRUST ISSUES" |
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geoff bull
Member Joined: 08 Oct. 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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Hi All, That looks like an MB Chassis that has been altered. First the chassis tag is correct for an MB and a check of the serial number should find MB prefixed before the number. Second trans cross member is higher on MB for the T 84 hence the spacers to accept a T90. Third rear shocks are mounted vertical on MB, they have now been moved to a correct 2a position. Fourth Gun mount remains still present on cross member A further check on the inside of the frame on the drivers side between the trans cross member and the gun mount should reveal that the two body mounts have been moved from the inside of the frame to the outside (MB`s had a tank well so body mounts had to be inside of frame). It could be a very very early 2 or agri-jeep frame but my guess it was an MB checking the frame tag should prove either way. Hope this helps id your frame. Geoff |
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46 2a #54088
41 slatgrill Mb, 52 M38#53132 55 M38A1#83015 |
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Joe DeYoung
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Madison WI Status: Offline Points: 3358 |
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Maybe someone welded a bubba version of a gun mount plate on a 2A frame. It looks like a t84 trany cross member has been lowered to accept the taller T90 transmissson. Come on Gary... that battery tray isn't so bad!? The frame tag is probably in the original (correct) location. The information in the history section of this Web Site is not correct concerning the location of the frame tag. It is NOT true that only the 1st hundred serial numbers were located on the inside of the frame rail. Here's some data for those of you that are interested in this sort of thing. I have a 10030, 12022, 12130, 16837, and 29258. All are original and have the frame tag on the inside. I also have 17173, 23281, 37859, and 43492. These are all originial and have the frame tag mounted on the outside. All of my later serial number tags are on the outside. Does anyone have Willys documentation that states were the tag is supposed to be according to documented engineering prints or memos? I would be curoius to know what the real story is here. Was there was a person on the assembly line that didn't do their job very well? Did the 3rd shift line forman not care what side it was on? I've seen illustrations of frame tag locations, but I don't trust them as willys used old out dated photos quite frequently in their advertising brouchures, service and part manuals.
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Joe DeYoung
to many jeeps, parts, and accessories to list here, but apparently enough to keep me in trouble with my wife. |
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geoff bull
Member Joined: 08 Oct. 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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Hi,Very interesting chassis tag,looks to be a short number can make out what I think is 2943. What is the number? as this may help id it. Geoff |
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46 2a #54088
41 slatgrill Mb, 52 M38#53132 55 M38A1#83015 |
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geoff bull
Member Joined: 08 Oct. 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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Hi Joe,I don`t think the gun mount has been welded on by Bubba there are two many other items that support the MB chassis. In fact it looks as if it`s a Bubba job they carried out in cutting one half off with a hot wrench Take a look at the rear shock mount,you can see the plate where it used to mount as on an mb its the one that has the curled edges. Now it`s been moved they have had to weld in a plate on the inside to take the new position of the shock mount. I don`t know when they changed the chassis tag position from inside to out but would have thought as the first civvy jeeps were based on mb chassis and built along side the mb that many would have had the tag on the inside. That`s why my request for a closer inspection of the chassis tag may reveal or throw some light on it`s origin Geoff |
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46 2a #54088
41 slatgrill Mb, 52 M38#53132 55 M38A1#83015 |
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Joe DeYoung
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Madison WI Status: Offline Points: 3358 |
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Geoff, I think your right... we need more info to unravel this mystery. I'm having trouble getting past the bell crank on the cross member and the frame tag, but from the trany cross member back has MB written all over it. Maybe a half breed? Sure would like an over all pic of the front, middle and rear. Also a pic of the steering bell crank mount. I zoomed in on the tag. It looks like the Letter "A" above the 9 and 4. This is were it's supposed to be for a CJ2A 29xxx number. Battle Hook 960, more pics? |
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Joe DeYoung
to many jeeps, parts, and accessories to list here, but apparently enough to keep me in trouble with my wife. |
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geoff bull
Member Joined: 08 Oct. 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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Hi Joe, certainly interesting stuff one gets to look at !!!!!!! I think it is an mb as I`m sure I can see traces of O/D paint on the lower rad mount as well as the drivers side grill mount and if you look carefully I think there`s still some left on the gun mount up in the top left corner of the plate. Oh this is riviting stuff can`t wait to see what the chassis tag says. Mind you it could have been swopped over as it only take a screw driver to push out the rivits from behind.now wouldn`t that be a real let down. Still your request for pictures of the bell crank mount as well as others will help. So how about it? don`t keep us all in suspense to long if you can`t take pictures how about a description of what it says on the tag? Geoff |
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46 2a #54088
41 slatgrill Mb, 52 M38#53132 55 M38A1#83015 |
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GaryArf
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 21 July 2005 Location: Baxter MN Status: Offline Points: 3905 |
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Hey guys you could be right in the MB theory but if you look very close at his original site at the bottom of the post it says "45 CJ2a 10224". I still think this thing is spliced to an MB and then modified to fit the 2a tub. This is fun, I wish every once in awhile these type posts were on purpose,as a challenge just to keep us all up on the differences and to educate some of us to the fine details of each change. maybe Russ would give the winner a gold star- oh ya he allready does that! It would have to be very generic with only one obscure detail, What do you think?
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Randy Snyder
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Terre Haute, IN Status: Offline Points: 1566 |
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You can see Sharek's '45 2A #10224 on this homepage under Indiana Flatfender Gathering. This frame isn't from that Jeep. I agree with most of the above statements. Looks like some sort of hybrid 2A/MB frame. FYI. My frame tag on #13943 is on the inside of the frame rail. Randy |
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Battle Hook 960
Member Joined: 28 Aug. 2005 Location: Central Indiana Status: Offline Points: 75 |
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Hello All, Thank you for your comments. The frame tag is as follows CJ-2A 29431 The drivers side body mounts have been relocated to the outside by plug welding them to the frame, the original holes where they were mounted are still on the inside boxed area of the frame. The front cross member has the bell crank mount welded to it just like my early 2A. I can find no places where the frame has been cut and spliced to add a front 2A section, the spot welded top straps are intact. The rear cross member has a hole for the PTO. The original front bumper is missing. The rear axle is not a full floating military type. ??????????????????????
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1945 CJ-2A 10224
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geoff bull
Member Joined: 08 Oct. 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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Hi BH960, I think this is an MB frame that has had a 2a chassis tag swopped over. And all the other modifications have had to be carried out so a 2a tub would fit. How well is the welding been done on the bell crank mount on the front cross member? First I can`t see Willys plug welding the two left side body mounts and I`d have thought by the CJ2a chassis number they would have used all the MB chassis`s up by the time they got to that number. The gun mount would have had to be cut off as a CJ body does not have the half circle floor riser like an Mb. As regards the rear cross member and the rear PTO hole,has the rear cross member been replaced at some time? or has the hole just been cut in an MB cross member? If it`s an MB rear cross member there will be the holes where the bumperettes would go also an MB rear cross member is shorter than a CJ one,take a look at the slope at both ends if there equal then it`s an MB if the drivers side has a longer slope it`s CJ. MB ones end by the rear panel to corner seams on both sides,CJ`s passenger side is the same whereas drivers extent past the seam. 45 CJ parts list rear cross member as 640219 not a Willys A number that would be used on an MB. What do you think Joe you have several early CJ`s Geoff
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46 2a #54088
41 slatgrill Mb, 52 M38#53132 55 M38A1#83015 |
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Joe DeYoung
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Madison WI Status: Offline Points: 3358 |
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Geoff, You're absolutely correct. I didn't even think about the rear cross member. Major clue. This makes me think about the front cross member. All CJ2As had two drilled holes about Ø1/8 on the top of the front cross member to mount the bush guard deflector. Again I'm not 100% certain, but I don't believe the MB would have had those holes. The pic of the battery tray just cuts off the view of the brush guard mounting hole. A pic looking down on the top of the front cross member would help determine if the front half is 2A. How about it BH960? Can you post some more pics? You're probably really busy, and never imagined that this would escalate to this level, but I don't think any of us are going to get a good nights sleep until we solve this mystery. |
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Joe DeYoung
to many jeeps, parts, and accessories to list here, but apparently enough to keep me in trouble with my wife. |
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Battle Hook 960
Member Joined: 28 Aug. 2005 Location: Central Indiana Status: Offline Points: 75 |
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I can get more photos, but the front cross member is definately civilian. The brush guard holes are intact and the front cross member matches my earlier 2A exactly. I cant find any welds that look ' non factory. This frame is throwing a wrench in this 2A restoration! I'll look at the rear cross member when the sun comes up. |
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1945 CJ-2A 10224
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