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samcj2a View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: OEM Spark Plugs
    Posted: 26 Dec. 2007 at 7:17pm
I've seen a number of the posts about spark plugs and am still wondering how the conclusion was drawn about the use of Autolite AN7 vs. Champion J-8 plugs.  I see that the '45 Parts List is not specific but has the A-538 part number indicating it was the same as the MB.  The '49 Parts List lists two plugs, the Champion and the Autolite, 638647 and 646808, respectively.  I saw the assertion by Sean that the Autolite was original and that all the manuals through 1953 or so called for the Autolite plug.  Since I don't have the '47 Parts List and see that my reprint of the '49 List seems to contradict Sean's assertion, I'm looking for more information about correct plugs - not as replacement parts but as shipped by the Willys.
 
Just to stir the pot a little, here is a picture of some J-8s I came across that look period correct, unlike the replacement J-8s that I think have more ribs. 
 
 
Thanks in advance for some more insight.
Sam

1946 CJ2A   15292 ACM    6678

1947 CJ2A 122031 ACM 111989

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lowenuf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec. 2007 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by samcj2a samcj2a wrote:

I see that the '45 Parts List is not specific but has the A-538 part number indicating it was the same as the MB.  I'm looking for more information about correct plugs - not as replacement parts but as shipped by the Willys. 
 
Thanks in advance for some more insight.
 
TM 9-803      (Willys 1941-1945 MB/GPW Military training manual for repair)
 
pg. 119   SECTION 62  paragraph b.   :
 
Spark Plugs
Make and Model...........................................Auto-Lite AN-7
Thread size..................................................  14-mm
Gap..............................................................  0.030 in.
45 #10012
45 #10033 ACM #47
45 #10163 ACM #188
57 CJ5    Dauntless V6, T-18 4-speed, D-44 rear/D-30 front, D-20 twin stick



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec. 2007 at 7:51pm
Thanks.  I conclude that the earliest 2As shipped with Autolite plugs.  Do we know if 2As ever shipped with Champion plugs?
Sam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec. 2007 at 2:48pm
Sam:
Quote I saw the assertion by Sean that the Autolite was original and that all the manuals through 1953 or so called for the Autolite plug.  Since I don't have the '47 Parts List and see that my reprint of the '49 List seems to contradict Sean's assertion
No contradiction.  I wasn't referring to "parts lists", but to the various "service" manuals (maintenance/mechanics/service/owners/operators manuals, etc.).

Listed specifically for CJ2A:
  • 1945 Salemans handbook:  Auto-Lite AN7
  • 1945 Maintenance Manual: Auto-Lite AN7
  • 1948 Mechanics Manual: Auto-Lite AN7
  • 1953 Mechanics Manual: Auto-Lite AN7
  • 1954 Auto-Lite master list: Auto-Lite A7
  • 1961 Popular Parts List: Autolite or Champion (no OEM numbers)
  • 1965 Service Manual: Champion J-8
The Champion J-8 was used earlier in other models.  The '53 Mechanics manual calls for J-8 in models 473, 475 and 685SW

Remembering that the '49 parts list also covered early CJ3A, and that it's a list of "service" parts, not necessarily "assembly line" parts, there's 2 possibilities:
  1. the J-8 was possibly used on late production CJ2A, or ...
  2. the J-8 was simply offered as an alternate service part
not enough info to say for sure.

That's a nice looking set of vintage J-8s you have.  Any idea how old they are?

Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec. 2007 at 6:59pm
  Seems I recall reading somewhere that J.N. Willys acquired Auto-Lite around the same time that he bought Overland. Only natural that they would use Auto-Lite plugs. In '53(?) WO was bought by Kaiser, maybe he didn't get Auto-Lite in the deal? Hence the Champions.   Ermm   BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gwalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec. 2007 at 8:00pm
He did once have the co.,  however they were owners or owned by many over the yrs  here is their story:
http://www.fostoria.org/history/autolite/autolite2.html#parent
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec. 2007 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by sean sean wrote:

Sam:
Quote I saw the assertion by Sean that the Autolite was original and that all the manuals through 1953 or so called for the Autolite plug.  Since I don't have the '47 Parts List and see that my reprint of the '49 List seems to contradict Sean's assertion
No contradiction.  I wasn't referring to "parts lists", but to the various "service" manuals (maintenance/mechanics/service/owners/operators manuals, etc.).

Listed specifically for CJ2A:
  • 1945 Salemans handbook:  Auto-Lite AN7
  • 1945 Maintenance Manual: Auto-Lite AN7
  • 1948 Mechanics Manual: Auto-Lite AN7
  • 1953 Mechanics Manual: Auto-Lite AN7
  • 1954 Auto-Lite master list: Auto-Lite A7
  • 1961 Popular Parts List: Autolite or Champion (no OEM numbers)
  • 1965 Service Manual: Champion J-8
The Champion J-8 was used earlier in other models.  The '53 Mechanics manual calls for J-8 in models 473, 475 and 685SW

Remembering that the '49 parts list also covered early CJ3A, and that it's a list of "service" parts, not necessarily "assembly line" parts, there's 2 possibilities:
  1. the J-8 was possibly used on late production CJ2A, or ...
  2. the J-8 was simply offered as an alternate service part
not enough info to say for sure.

That's a nice looking set of vintage J-8s you have.  Any idea how old they are?

Sean
 
Thanks for all the background.    Thanks to Matt's ordering some extra Autolite repros from Eagle Jeep, I'm all set with some appropriate plugs.
 
I got the J-8s about a year ago before I knew that the Autolite plugs were more appropriate.  They came in boxes that identified them as reconditioned Champion J-8s produced by W-C Manufacturing Co. of Stephenville, Texas.  There's no ZIP code so that would seem to date them before 1963 or so.  The packaging looks to be from the '50s or earlier, but they could be much newer made to look old.  The high point of the packaging is the statement that they are "guaranteed 10,000 miles."
 
George, nice article.  I was thinking that it was a little disjointed until I realized that it was focused mostly on the one spark plug manufacturing facility as opposed to the more diverse company.
Sam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alex D. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec. 2007 at 4:58pm
So......... The Auto-Lite AN-7 is listed for the 2-A between 1945 and 1953. In 1954 Auto-Lite list the A-7 as the plug for the 2-A.
What is the difference between the AN-7 and the A-7 ?   Is it the heat range or just a newer version?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec. 2007 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by Alex D. Alex D. wrote:

So......... The Auto-Lite AN-7 is listed for the 2-A between 1945 and 1953. In 1954 Auto-Lite list the A-7 as the plug for the 2-A.
What is the difference between the AN-7 and the A-7 ?   Is it the heat range or just a newer version?
 
Alex,
 
This does not answer your question but some additonal information about plugs was posted in another thread where the topic came up.  As Sean has said, his comment in this thread was based on the manuals in Sean's list.  When he went to look in the '45, '47 and '49 Parts Lists, he had this to say:
Originally posted by Sean Sean wrote:

[QUOTE=samcj2a]
Sam:
Just following your logic here - was the Autolite plug mentioned in any of the Part Lists before both it and the Champion were listed in the '49 list?
[QUOTE=Sean]  Nope, not by "brand".

An interesting development though, now that I've dug into it.
  • The '45 list has #A-538, same as MB, presumably Auto-Lite AN7
  • The '47 list has #638647 - no brand given
  • The '49 list has #638647 - Champion!
So the parts lists & the service manuals don't agree!

Sean
You may or may not conclude from that information that Champion may have been used in later 2As (or not!). 
 
With respect to the question you asked, I have seen tables such as this one: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Plugs/equiv.htm  that indicate the A7 and AN7 are equivalent plugs based on size and heat range.
 
Sam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hillbilly21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec. 2007 at 8:16pm
  I have my other 46 I am getting ready to restore and the plugs in it are J-10 champions..
 
When I get one out I will post a picture...POINT  being I am the 2nd  owner of this rig and only a little over 17000 miles on it..Dont want to steel the thread but is it possible they are the originals
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec. 2007 at 8:42pm
My opinion is that a J-10 is not likely an original plug if only because, as I understand Champion's numbering scheme, the higher the number, the warmer the plug.  In all the info I have seen, the J-8 is the equivalent in heat range to the Auto-Lite AN7 (not just in Willys pubs, but in general).  The AN7 was surely used early in production, and the J-8 was listed along with the AN7 as interchangeable replacement parts in the '49 Parts List. 
 
I think there was a J-9 that would have been closer to the heat range of the J-8 and the AN7, yet still warmer.  To me, that makes the J-10 a pretty unlikely candidate. 
 
It will be interesting to see other opinions - as always!
Sam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan. 2008 at 1:51am
   HB21,    back in those days, with points & all, 10,000 miles was about the limit of the expected life of a spark plug, 20,000 was almost unheard of. Those J-10's should be at least the second set, maybe even third. Those are pretty warm compared to what was recomended, possibly PO had a fouling problem due to extended idling, etc.   BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hillbilly21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan. 2008 at 11:07am
 Thanks for the info...I have J-8 s  ..I will put them in and see what happens as  the motor is running ..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan. 2008 at 4:34pm
Alex:
Quote What is the difference between the AN-7 and the A-7 ?   Is it the heat range or just a newer version?
I don't know, but it's not the heat range.  I've asked the same question on other forums, but nobody seems to know.

The first letter designates thread size:
  • A = 14mm
  • B = 18mm
  • P = 10mm
  • T = 7/8"
  • F = 1/2"
The number designates heat range:
  • 3 (coldest)
  • 5
  • 7
  • 9
  • 11 (hottest)
I'm not certain about this, but I think solid core plugs were odd-numbered, and resistor plugs were even-numbered ("AT-8" & "AR-82" are resistor plugs)

The second letter is still unknown for sure, but might be reach.  There were a few different letters used in this spot.  Some that I know of for sure:
  • AL
  • AN
  • AR
  • AT
  • AX
"AL" is supposedly "long reach".  "AT" is supposedly heavy duty, for "Truck" (or other commercial/industrial) use.

Apparently, the "A7" was listed before WW-II, so it's still a mystery to me.

Sean


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