Frame change from 2A to 3A style?

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   I spent about an 1/2 searching through the forum from day 1, but I could not find any definite answer on what time frame or serial number 2A's changed to the 3A style frames. Or if this is even a fact or not.

This post has some good info to start with but does anyone have any real facts?

http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=2078

Thanks
Russ

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russnj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Webmaster Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: W. Windsor, NJ Status: Offline Points: 3917	Post Options Post Reply Quote russnj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Frame change from 2A to 3A style? Posted: 27 Feb. 2008 at 4:28am
	I spent about an 1/2 searching through the forum from day 1, but I could not find any definite answer on what time frame or serial number 2A's changed to the 3A style frames. Or if this is even a fact or not. This post has some good info to start with but does anyone have any real facts? http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=2078 Thanks Russ
	43 MB, 48 CJ2A, 50 CJ3A, 55 M38A1, 56 CJ5, 79 M151A2, M100 ,65 M416

bkreutz Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 17 Oct. 2006 Location: Fruitland Idaho Status: Offline Points: 7037	Post Options Post Reply Quote bkreutz Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Feb. 2008 at 4:41am
	I don't know if this is helpful, but from looking at the parts catalog they list one part number up to S/N 199079, another for 199079 to 215649, another for up to the end of 2A production, and another couple for 3A's, of course then the book muddies everything up by cross referencing these numbers to each other, which makes very little sense, except that maybe the mounting points were all the same, the difference being the radiatior and bellcrank mounts on the later ones. Isn't this fun.
	Gale 47 CJ2A 142857 47 Bantam T3-C 16271 Photo page http://bkreutz.smugmug.com/

Turtleherder Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 15 Jan. 2006 Location: Asheboro, NC Status: Offline Points: 303	Post Options Post Reply Quote Turtleherder Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Feb. 2008 at 10:45am
	If ya'll can be patient for about a month (I'm leaving out, back on the road today.), when I get back, I'll line up my "alleged" 3A frame (bare) and compare it to the '46 I'm taking apart. If there are differences, I'll let you know. I may even try photo posting again.

Bob W Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 4 Joined: 08 Aug. 2005 Location: Monticello, NY Status: Offline Points: 1631	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bob W Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Feb. 2008 at 2:24pm
	Check this out. http://www.film.queensu.ca/cJ3B/Dating/DatingFrames.html
	Bob W Email The CJ-3A Information Page

westforkboyd Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Sep. 2006 Location: Northern Iowa Status: Offline Points: 3509	Post Options Post Reply Quote westforkboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Feb. 2008 at 2:37pm
	Russ I've been trying to find some info on that also. Since joining as a matter of fact. Mule #219719 has the 3A style frame but the motor mounts are 2A and show no evidence of modification. Still has the original riviting. Was asking members with serial nos. that are close and found no others. Sean advised me that Bob W. would be the best resource for this info. But haven't pressed him for his thinking on it. There have been several threads that address this issue but no definative information, as you said. Just off the top of my head it seems like some think a change occured around #220xxx and thought Mule would be close to that and possibly an example. Maybe your firing up this line of discussion will bear fruit this time. I've hoped Mules body/frame combination was original but can not come up with proof. The discouraging fact is that I have found is 2As with later serial numbers than Mules still have the 2A frames. So my last hope is that W/O made a test/prototype run at around Mules manufacture date. WFB
	'48 CJ-2A #184135 Lefty '49 CJ-2A #219719 Mule '39 Ford 9N '55 Oliver Super 55 Ollybelle

russnj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Webmaster Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: W. Windsor, NJ Status: Offline Points: 3917	Post Options Post Reply Quote russnj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Feb. 2008 at 2:41pm
	Nice! Thanks A lot Bob! It seems mine falls in the late range 219635 is my serial number, 211728 is my body number. What would the changes to look out for to be sure? I have always been skeptical of both of my tags since they are pop riveted onto the body. WFB: Mule and my 2A are only 84 numbers apart! If my tags are correct that is. They must have been made within a few days of each other. Russ
	43 MB, 48 CJ2A, 50 CJ3A, 55 M38A1, 56 CJ5, 79 M151A2, M100 ,65 M416

westforkboyd Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Sep. 2006 Location: Northern Iowa Status: Offline Points: 3509	Post Options Post Reply Quote westforkboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Feb. 2008 at 9:39pm
	Russ That is alot of info from Bob W. Way more changes went on than I had knowledge of. I have only been looking at a few things in regards to Mule: The motor mounts, frame is not strapped, 3A style trans crossmember. My body number is 212854. I like you don't know for sure if the tags are correct. Are you saying yours is on a 3A type frame also? I wasn't aware our two were so close together. This is interesting. Allen
	'48 CJ-2A #184135 Lefty '49 CJ-2A #219719 Mule '39 Ford 9N '55 Oliver Super 55 Ollybelle

russnj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Webmaster Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: W. Windsor, NJ Status: Offline Points: 3917	Post Options Post Reply Quote russnj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Feb. 2008 at 9:52pm
	Yes, mine has the 3A style. So far I have noticed 1. 2A style spacing for the motor mounts. 2. transmission cross member bolts to the bottom of the frame rails. 3. No front bumper gussets. I will be listing some more after I take another look after seeing Bob's info. Allen: Are your tags pop riveted on as well? Russ
	43 MB, 48 CJ2A, 50 CJ3A, 55 M38A1, 56 CJ5, 79 M151A2, M100 ,65 M416

westforkboyd Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Sep. 2006 Location: Northern Iowa Status: Offline Points: 3509	Post Options Post Reply Quote westforkboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Feb. 2008 at 10:18pm
	No mine are screwed. Serial slot head, body phillips. Mine is the same as your 1 and 2 but my frame horns were bubba'd so bad I couldn't tell. There were no gussets though. I ordered the replacement frame horns from Walck's and when they came they were thinner and the profile didn't match exactly. I used them after some modifications. So I can't help much there. That does go along with the fact that the 3A frame was heavier guage though. Your frame then is not strapped either? By that I mean the straps rivited to the top and bottom of the 2A frame? I'm beginning to think we are on to something here. What I don't understand is why later serial number 2A's would go back to the earlier 2A frame? Unless the members I querried about this didn't understand what I was asking. I haven't examined in person these later 2As just questioned members here as I saw their serial numbers. Allen
	'48 CJ-2A #184135 Lefty '49 CJ-2A #219719 Mule '39 Ford 9N '55 Oliver Super 55 Ollybelle

Bob W Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 4 Joined: 08 Aug. 2005 Location: Monticello, NY Status: Offline Points: 1631	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bob W Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Feb. 2008 at 12:24am
	I have been saving frame information from the web when I see a photo and serial number posted together. Now I added Russ and Allen to the list. Some of you will probably recognize your serial numbers. Here is what I have so far. 195513 early frame 199079 change to inverted bell crank 6/11/48 per Bulletin 48-43 (still early type frame) 206711 early frame 209949 early frame 215648 change to late style frame 9/20/1948 per Bulletin 48-60 217424 late frame 219579 late frame 219635 late frame 219719 late frame 222638 late frame 223579 late frame 224206 late frame From this data it looks like serial number 215648 is actually the frame change point. I would not be surprised if there were a few frames that fall outside of this range. If anyone has a 1948 or 49 CJ-2A please let us know your serial number and what type frame you have. The later Parts Manuals complicate deciphering the frame change point because late style frames, plus the additional components necessary to retrofit them, quickly superceded the 2 early frames. There really isn't much in common between early and late frame types. Here are a few differences that stand right out. The front bumper attachment, transmission crossmember attachment, clutch and brake pedal shaft bracket, and shock mounts. Here are some photos of the late type frame. Passenger side front bumper attachment Transmission crossmember, body mount, and pedal bracket. Shock mounts.
	Bob W Email The CJ-3A Information Page

westforkboyd Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Sep. 2006 Location: Northern Iowa Status: Offline Points: 3509	Post Options Post Reply Quote westforkboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Feb. 2008 at 1:24am
	Bob W That for me is just great information! One of the reasons I first came to this site was to find out about Mule. Why the frame was different. I've read and asked and speculated for years and had given up on the idea that it had the original frame on there. Resigned myself to the fact that it had been bubba'd by a PO who had put a 2A body on a 3A frame! One never knows for sure I guess uless you bought it new but it now looks like this was the frame that was originally assembled with it. I wasnt aware of all the markers you have researched except the few I mentioned. But one of the big ones was the strapping. From your data then they dropped the strapping after #215648? I understand now why you would want photo evidence of the markers. I have questioned many members about their configurations and most say no mine is a 2A frame (referring to characteristics of the early one). Maybe miscommunication or incomplete comprhension but I'll bet this has been difficult for you to verify the data you have gathered. Sean had advised me in the past that you would be the one to help me about Mule but I never broke the ice so to speak. Thanks alot Allen
	'48 CJ-2A #184135 Lefty '49 CJ-2A #219719 Mule '39 Ford 9N '55 Oliver Super 55 Ollybelle

Bob W Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 4 Joined: 08 Aug. 2005 Location: Monticello, NY Status: Offline Points: 1631	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bob W Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Feb. 2008 at 1:40am
	The strapping also goes away at 215648. It is a big change but I think it doesn't stand out like some of the other differences. From the side it does look like the frame is 2 layers thick. I identified the frame type for most of the vehicles in my list by examining photos posted on the web.
	Bob W Email The CJ-3A Information Page

captianpattson Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 07 Apr. 2010 Location: ST GEORGE, UT Status: Offline Points: 770	Post Options Post Reply Quote captianpattson Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 July 2010 at 7:22pm
	If you'll check out my jeep project thread. We discussed this a bit. For a bit we thought my 49 frame may have been a 3A but it was determined to be a 2A.
	'49 CJ2A in fewer pieces than before My Build Thread

Bob W Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 4 Joined: 08 Aug. 2005 Location: Monticello, NY Status: Offline Points: 1631	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bob W Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 July 2010 at 12:35am
	Thanks for adding the info about your late frame!
	Bob W Email The CJ-3A Information Page

Rob H. Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 21 July 2005 Location: Petersville, Ky. Status: Offline Points: 1471	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rob H. Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 July 2010 at 1:52pm
	Bob, you've seen my 48. It has the late frame, but of course I have no idea of the serial number as the plates are missing. Only thing I can date mine by are the casting dates on the transmission, tranfer case and rear axle housing. All of them were mid July of 48. But then I'm not absoulutely sure anything is original to my 48 as it's had a very varied past from what I was told by a PO. LOL
	Rob H. 1948 CJ2A bits and pieces of three 3A's 1967-72 Chevy C/10 kinda combined them LOL

westforkboyd Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Sep. 2006 Location: Northern Iowa Status: Offline Points: 3509	Post Options Post Reply Quote westforkboyd Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 July 2010 at 2:12pm
	Good morning Bob Have you gathered any information on the absence of bolt holes in the right frame rail for the gen splash guard on the late 2A frames? We visited a bit about that in Cincy this spring. Glad we were able to finally meet up there.
	'48 CJ-2A #184135 Lefty '49 CJ-2A #219719 Mule '39 Ford 9N '55 Oliver Super 55 Ollybelle

Bob W Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 4 Joined: 08 Aug. 2005 Location: Monticello, NY Status: Offline Points: 1631	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bob W Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 July 2010 at 2:17pm
	Hi Rob, It is certainly possible that gearboxes with mid July castings ended up in a 2A with a late style frame. With those dates that Jeep would be one of the very first with the later style frame. Too bad the tags are missing! Thanks for the info.
	Bob W Email The CJ-3A Information Page

Scott R Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 16 Mar. 2007 Location: Gaines, MI Status: Offline Points: 1392	Post Options Post Reply Quote Scott R Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 July 2010 at 2:22pm
	Mine is 221621. Late frame. At this moment I know for sure... No bumper gussets and the transmission crossmember is bolted to the bottom of the frame. I will need a little more info to know if I have the "2A style spacing for the motor mounts" or not.
	Michigan Flat Fender Club on Facebook 1949 CJ2A #221621 1965 CJ-5