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Front hub spindle nuts

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buzzshipman View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Apr. 2019 at 5:20pm
I’m putting new brake shoes on and took the whole front hub off. I bought new nuts and washers and the correct socket so I don’t have to use a chisel or screwdriver to tighten up the nuts. What torque should those nuts be. I’m thinking the first nut should be the one that gets torqued since the second one gets the washer bent over. Also what is the best way to bend that washer over. 

Thanks
    Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr. 2019 at 6:38pm
You tighten the inner nut against the thrust washer that is installed on the inner bearing race and turn the hub with your hand. Do this until you feel the hub get harder to turn. You want it to turn free without too much drag and also not be too loose. Once you find the sweet spot, you install the lock washer (the bigger wider one) and tighten the outer nut against it until tight. I know of no torque settings for this. Once the outer nut is tight against all and where you want it, I take a pocket knife and scribe along one side of the nut where it meets the washer. Now remove the lock nut and lock washer. Put the lock washer in a vice and with a hacksaw , cut about a 1/4 inch wide tab that you will bend against the nut. You cut two slits in the middle of the scribe mark about 1/4 inch apart. Cut from  the edge down to your scribe mark. I pre start the tab bend with a pair of pliers just a little. The lock washer has a tab that fits the spindle cutout. I face it in. I bend the sawed tab out. That way it's easier to unbend if you want to remove the hub and bearings. Trying to bend the whole tab against the nut is terrible and not necessary. 

I've found much Bubba work done in the hubs. Washers in the wrong place, the washer bent inwards, on and on. Nothing like chiseling a piece of nut metal into the roller bearing huh? Glad you bought the socket. The nut and washer kit is so cheap, I can't understand why they don't buy a new set each time. 

If you are putting the drive flanges and caps on, a large socket over the cap that hits only the outside lip works well. So many beat the crap out of the cap with a hammer. 

Hope this helps you, John


Edited by Oilleaker1 - 23 Apr. 2019 at 6:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr. 2019 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by Oilleaker1 Oilleaker1 wrote:

....  I know of no torque settings for this....

I don't know about a Dana 25, but i know it for both a Dana 44 and a Dana 60.  That might help you get in the ballpark.

On a Dana 44 the spec is to torque the inner nut to 50 lb-ft in stages, rotating the hub each time you torque it up, then back it off 45 degrees.

On a Dana 60 the inner nut is also torqued to 50 lb-ft, then backed off 90 degrees.

The outer nut on a Dana 44 should be torqued to 150 lb-ft.  On a Dana 60 it's 160 - 200 lb-ft.

It's been quite a while, but I used to have a CJ5 with a Dana 30.  I seem to recall that being pretty much the same as a Dana 44.
Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr. 2019 at 11:57pm
I read somewhere to torque the inner nut to 50 ft-lbs then back off a flat.  Then put in the washer with a starting bend in and a bend out, then run the outer nut in tight (never saw a torque spec there...) and finish bend the washer to lock both in place.  I may have seen that info on Vernco.com when it was still available.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkamonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2019 at 12:10am
The inner nut will get tightened up when the outer nut is installed. You need to leave things a touch loose so you are correct in the end. Just a touch of play to be right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2019 at 12:21am
50 ft lbs seems a bit high to me. I think the settings for the old front drums on my Maverick was 15 INCH pounds. I recall not getting that right once and tightening to ft lbs with the result of burning out a set of bearings.
 
From the book:

FRONT WHEEL BEARINGS

The front wheels are mounted on two opposed tapered roll bearings. These bearings are adjustable for wear and their satisfactory operation and long life depends upon periodic attention and correct lubrication. Loose front wheel bearings may cause excessive wear and will affect front wheel alignment. If the bearing adjustment is too tight, the rollers may break or become overheated. To check the adjustment, first raise the front of the vehicle so that the tires clear the floor. Check the brakes to be sure they are free and fully released. With the hands, check sidewise shake of the wheel. If the bearings are correctly adjusted, shake of the wheel will be just perceptible and the wheel will turn freely with no drag.

Should the test indicate that adjustment is necessary, remove the hub cap axle shaft nut, washer, driving flange and shims. See Fig. 25. Wheel bearing adjustment will then be accessible. Bend the lip of the nut locking washer so that the adjustment lock nut and washer can be removed. Rotate the wheel and tighten the adjusting nut until the wheel binds slightly. Then back off the nut 1/6 turn, or more if necessary, making sure the wheel turns freely without sidewise shake. Replace the locking washer and lock nut and bend over the locking washer lip. Check the adjustment and reassemble the driving flange, nut and hub cap, being sure to replace the shims.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2019 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

50 ft lbs seems a bit high to me. I think the settings for the old front drums on my Maverick was 15 INCH pounds. I recall not getting that right once and tightening to ft lbs with the result of burning out a set of bearings....

I got the 50 lb-ft specs from Ford shop manuals, so I'm sure they're correct (for a Dana 44 and Dana 60).  But keep in mind the requirement to back the inner nut off 45 or 90 degrees.  They won't be anywhere close to 50 lb-ft at that point.  As Unkamonkey points out, they will be a little sloppy like that, but will snug up when the outer nuts are torqued down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2019 at 1:52pm
  GM (I know these are not GM products, but they are the same) told us that they wanted "no lash and no pre-load" on the wheel bearings. They said to make sure that the outer bearing and washer were able to slide on the spindle freely and the nut to turn freely, then tighten the inner nut (or the only nut on 2WD) to (I forget the spec, but it's not really important), to seat the bearings. Then loosen the nut, then tighten it just until you feel the nut and washer contact the bearing. Then install the locking washer and outer nut, or the cotter key on 2WD. This is the only place GM said to loosen the nut if needed to install the cotter key. They said "finger tight" was too tight. (But that's about how I usually left them.Wink
  That's the way I've always done them, with no troubles. Also, on the GM 4WD trucks (Fords are similar, I believe), the locking washer has holes that engage pins on the inner nut, so the washer holds the inner, not the outer, nut. The outer nut holds the locking washer in place and provides a bit of a "jam nut" effect. On my jeeps I adjust the inner nut, slide on the locking washer, tighten the outer nut, check the adjustment, then bend the washer over the inner nut. Think about it, the inner nut is the one that needs to be held in place to hold adjustment. Bending the washer is easier this way, and removal is much easier because there's no need to unbend it.  
  I'm not saying that everybody should do it this way, it's just the way that works for me.   BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2019 at 1:59pm
The tabs on the washers should not be bent over. Install the first washer with the tab in the slot, install the nut and tighten until the wheel won't move, loosen the nut until the wheel will move with no play in the bearing. Install the second washer with the tab in the slot, install the nut and tighten. The second nut is the lock nut and will not loosen. The tabs are on the washers to keep the washers from moving when you tighten the nuts and the compression between the first nut, second washer and second nut lock the assembly together.

Some other cars use washers with bendable tabs to lock wheel bearing adjustment nuts in place but this is not the case with the Jeeps we are dealing with.

DonH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2019 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by DonH DonH wrote:

The tabs on the washers should not be bent over.



Sorry but that is NOT what my manual says.

It actually states something to the effect 'do not FAIL to bend the lock washer'.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2019 at 4:44pm
Actually says bend the "lip" of the lock washer, says nothing about tabs, leaves me wondering where the "lip" is and how this can be accomplished.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2019 at 5:27pm
I based my statement on the kits that contain identical nuts and identical washers. Further research has revealed to me that the inner washer part number is A-865 and the outer washer is A-867 which is the type which requires the bending of the lip. My apology. If you have identical inner and outer washers don't try to bend anything.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2019 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by DonH DonH wrote:

Actually says bend the "lip" of the lock washer, says nothing about tabs, leaves me wondering where the "lip" is and how this can be accomplished.

DonH
The "lip" is the edge of the outer washer that extends past the outer nut after it has been installed. I bend the lip outwards with a stout screwdriver against one of the flats on the outer nut. It only takes one bend, not all six. This keeps the outer nut from backing off. To remove the nut simply push the "lip" back flat and remove the outer nut.

The only critical part of this whole thing is the preload on the wheel bearings. You want the wheel to turn free without having to force it and have no slack in the bearings. Preload should be checked after the second nut is snugged down but before any bending of the "lip".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rus Curtis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2019 at 5:45pm
It's good that folks are referencing the Service Manual.  It would be a shame not to.  Nothing wrong with using techniques as long as the results are the same.  I've been taught to differentiate so not to confuse those learning.
 
Tabs being bent can be seen in Oilleaker's post.  He points out that the tab that exists on the lockwasher is inserted in the slot.  The tab that he bends is the one he created by cutting the bent lip.  This is technique - not what is written in the manual. 
 
I also believe the lip is the outer edge of the washer.  It can't be the inner edge - where the tab is located.  The 2 nuts are referenced as "adjusting" and "lock"  I'm sure it's obvious the inner is the adjusting.
 
Scribing and a partial pre-bend is a good technique as there isn't much room to get a tool in there to bend it with.  I have never personally had a problem bending the lip down on the outer lock nut doing this. 
 
The manual states that the wheel is spun by hand while the adjusting nut is tightened to ensure the bearing is positively seated.  Do this until the wheel binds.  Back off 1/6 turn or more ensuring wheel rotates freely without sideways shake.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spinnas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2019 at 12:48pm
I despise those stupid bent tab retaining washers. I am a fan of the "nipple" nuts commonly found in D44s and D60s. However, there is not enough thread on a D25/27 spindle to fit them. There is however enough thread to combine the 2, so I do the nipple inner nut and washer for it, then the factory type 2-1/16" hex outer nut.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2019 at 11:14pm
So do any two of us here use the exact same front wheel bearing adjustment scheme?  LOL



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr. 2019 at 7:52am
I always bend the washer to the outer nut because if you have ever had an outer nut back off like I did once, you don't want it to happen again. It wrecked not only the spindle but also took out a hub lock. The inner nut did stay where it was supposed to. I have no idea why the outer nut backed off because I know it was tightened properly during assembly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 46Willard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr. 2019 at 11:01am
I like to adjust the wheel bearings with the wheel/tire installed if possible. I grab the tire at the top and bottom and feel for the slightest amount of play. The term I was taught was "barely perceptible", similar to Bruce's no lash, no preload. Sometimes I will rest my forehead on the tire to help feel that slight play. I agree with Unkamonkey, that tightening the outer nut, tends to tighten the inner nut a little, so some times trial and error, to get the right setting. Also important to snug the inner bearing to seat it (squish grease). Seems like mo matter how precise I set the wheel bearings, after a few miles, the endplay will increase, but usually at an acceptable amount.
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