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Fuel Injecting the 3B

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bkwudz View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 July 2019 at 10:14am
The 3B has a pretty good running fhead, but we are going to see how much better it runs, if at all, with fuel injection.   In reality it probably does not need it, but i like fun projects.

it uses a 1barrel GM throttle body,  from the late 80's 2.5 iron duke 4cyl.   These old TBI systems are super simple, bullet proof and easy to dial in.    

The stock distr needs to have a electronic  pickup installed and the weights removed, as all the timing will be done by the computer.   I used a new replacement electronic dist, so only the weights were  removed.

I got the harness, adapters and computer from Hamilton FI, so after its running, we will datalog it, send the data over the hamilton, and they will update the chip with engine specific programming.

I am getting close to startup,  elec fuel pump, filter, all new feed and return lines are installed,  temp sensor and O2 sensor are installed, and stock linkage is connected to the TB

Im using the stock tank,   and feeding the return in from the bottom drain fitting, hoping it will work, otherwise i will have to  install a bulkhead fitting on top of the tank and route the return there.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2019 at 10:47am
Very interesting Paul. 
I see you even used the standard throttle linkage. 
Perhaps best of all.... this looks like a great way to get the F-134 under a low hood.

Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drm101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2019 at 10:55am
That does sound like a fun project. I'm curious how much it costs and also how you will know if it's better or not. I'm sure cold driveability will for sure be better. With all the 4 cylinder 2.5L's in salvage yards, I'd guess parts would be easy and cheap to obtain. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2019 at 12:01pm
One of the major issues I have always had with EFI conversions over the years is the fuel pickup using a carb tank. It will work ok with the tank full, but eventually it will start sucking air as the fuel sloshes around in the tank. This air goes into the fuel pump which shortens it's life. The air bubbles in the fuel delivery line don't help anything on the injector side of things.


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkwudz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2019 at 12:14pm
that is a potential issue, i  am hoping to avoid the problem.  The tank pickup is at the rear passenger side of the tank.  i have lifted the driverside of the tank about 1/2", so it tilts towards the pickup.   Im thinking i will have to be almost empty before i suck air.  Also noticed my tank is baffled, which should help.   

Worst case if it is a problem, ill run a surge tank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2019 at 6:53pm
My 2a FI project also runs the fuel supply from the drain plug and returns through the old supply port on the stock tank. Seems to work fine so far. Your system looks a lot cleaner than mine turned out. Bill is looking over some data that I sent for the second iteration of the tune. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bkwudz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2019 at 8:26pm
She’s a runner, I must have done something right, started on first try, And even before any basic adjustments, and any chip reprogramming, I think it feels, sounds and smells better than ever.   This could be very sweet

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2019 at 10:59pm
Even for this old traditionalist, that's pretty cool Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkwudz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2019 at 9:09pm
Knocking off all the little things, got all the guts tucked up under the dash nice and neat.  love the extra height under the dash.
 all the lines and wires secured,  and if my air cleaner shows up tomorrow, i’ll Be able to take it for a ride.  
I thought this was cool, I’m going to take AC trigger, which raises the RPM a little to compensate when the AC is on,  and run it to the York OBA, so when the compressor is turned on, the RPM will jump up to a set point

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2019 at 10:31pm
You might want to brace those long fuel lines into/out of the TB somewhere.  They could easily vibrate into trouble.  The fuel injection looks like a really great idea though!  Thumbs Up
There's a reason it's called Ol' Unreliable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkwudz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug. 2019 at 8:51pm
Install is done, everything is secured, and seems to be working well. I need to now take it for a couple good rides to log some data, then we will burn a new chip specific to this jeep anthe conditions it operated under. Hopefully tomorrow ill get it on the road and have a seat of the pants feel for how things have improved.



Edited by bkwudz - 13 Aug. 2019 at 1:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug. 2019 at 9:50pm
1946 CJ2A #69750 - "Plowshare"
Bantam T3-C #15849
2016 JK unlimited (Hers)
1969 Kaiser CJ5 (sold)

Analog spoken here....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug. 2019 at 10:07pm
Always nice when a plan works out. Let us know how well it runs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masscj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug. 2019 at 5:28am
Yeh, I'm shocked to hear this coming from you. Your still a solid steel wheel guy. I'm there with you though. Glad Paul is getting all the bugs worked out for the rest of us. Well with exception of the traditionalist guy. But seriously I'm thinking about this for a future part of the 3b. Even though after rebuilding the carb has helped and the electronics distributor helped, there are just too many hills around here to make a really enjoyable long drive. Have to plan your drives based on flatter roads. 😁
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BillF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug. 2019 at 10:22am
Wonder how I could get this to work with the 24 volt system...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bkwudz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug. 2019 at 9:17am
Been working on the system, install looks good, seems to work well.  Even with a bad tune it still runs better than the carb.  But You ask " why do i have a bad tune" because i have probably been giving bad data.  I have supplied Bill with a couple sets of data and he has made adjustments, but it really has not changed anything for the better.   So i looked into it a little more, and it turns out i should have followed Bills install advice a little closer.  He suggests after the install, before you spend any time logging any data, check your fuel pressures.   The Inlet needs to be around 13 PSI and the return should be petty much 0.  So i put a gauge on it, and my inlet is rock steady at 13, but my return is at 5psi, way too high.

The excess pressure in the return causes a rich condition at the injector that cannot be tuned out.  Any restrictions in the return throws the custom tune way off.   

The good news is i know right were my return problem is, i suspected it would be an issue from install, but still took the easy way.   I used the drain on the bottom of the stock tank as the return inlet.   The fact that its in the bottom isn't the issue,  its because its a small fitting,  1/4" with an even smaller actual hole in it.  Otherwise the line from the throttle body to the tank is all 5/16", the recommenced size. 

So i need to find a 90deg 5/16 or even 3/8" bulkhead fitting to install on the top the tank.    Then i'll be able to log some good data and go from there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug. 2019 at 9:30am
Any progress is good progress Thumbs Up  ...and I thought I was the only one that took the easy way suspecting I'd be redoing something, and then redoing something Big smile
1946 CJ2A #69750 - "Plowshare"
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2016 JK unlimited (Hers)
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Analog spoken here....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob3b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug. 2019 at 1:49pm
That's pretty cool right there.
1953 CJ3b, nice!
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