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gauge of 1948 cj2a frame question

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vidaliaman View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 June 2019 at 4:44pm
what is the gauge of the metal frame on my 1948 cj2a?

thanks again 
dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 4:37am
My understanding, which I learned from the historians here, is "Gauge" was not the standard unit of measure for steel thickness during the 1940s.   I've measured my 2A frame in a few places to get an average of about .0955".  This is roughly 3/32".

Just as a comparison...and to once again point out to the 2A crowd that the CJ3A is a superior product...the frame on a 3A is .1475" or 9/64".Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vidaliaman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 11:31am
so just a bit thicker than 1/8, wow, thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by athawk11 athawk11 wrote:

...an average of about .0955".  This is roughly 3/32".

Originally posted by vidaliaman vidaliaman wrote:

so just a bit thicker than 1/8, wow, thanks

Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 7:06pm
US Standard Gauge is a measure established by 1893 Federal Legislation and is based on the weight in pounds per square foot of the steel. 12 gauge sheet is is 4.37 pounds per square foot and is .1094" thick although the manufacturers standard is .1046". A measurement of .1475" equates to approximately 9 gauge sheet.

The early CJ2a frames us the same composite frame that was used in the MB, the frame being reinforced with strips of metal the same gauge as the frame spot welded to the frame, boxing of the frame in certain areas, and the use of gussets riveted to the frame to support the front bumper. This frame was replaced at serial number 199079 with the easier to manufacture one piece stamping which carried through to subsequent models.

The 1958 service manual shows the frame specifications for models CJ2a,CJ3a, DJ3a, and CJ3b to be identical with a maximum thickness of .1495" or 9 gauge manufacturers specification exactly, made of the same SAE 950 material, and identical in total weight of 174 pounds.

The is no need for frame envy.

DonH


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 8:31pm
The frame used on a 1948 CJ2A depends on whether it was built early in 48, or late 48.

My 1948 CJ2A was late production, and was built on the CJ3A frame which is heavier than early 1948 production. CJ3As were coming off the line along with the last 2As in late 48.

You can spot the later style frame easily by looking at the front frame horns. Early CJ2A frame has the gussets like a Military MB, the later CJ3A style frame does not have the gussets, has a bit of a hump on top, and a flare out to the inside on the bottom. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by DonH DonH wrote:

\
The 1958 service manual shows the frame specifications for models CJ2a,CJ3a, DJ3a, and CJ3b to be identical with a maximum thickness of .1495" or 9 gauge manufacturers specification exactly, made of the same SAE 950 material, and identical in total weight of 174 pounds.

The is no need for frame envy.

DonH



I'm sorry Don, but the 1958 service manual should not have included the CJ2A frame in this listing (unless they are speaking specifically about the greatly improved LATE 1948 CJ2A frame mentioned above.)  It is not the first mistake to be found in this late service manual...and won't be the last.  

May your envy live on...LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 11:58pm
No envy and what are you sorry about. The frames are functionally and structurally the same and are equally strong. The specifications listed show the CJ2a frame having a MAXIMUM thickness of .1495" which is inclusive of all CJ2a frames and is not a mistake. The reason for the change was that a composite frame was more expensive to produce and was introduced at the CJ2a serial number mentioned above. The only improvement to the frame is in Willys' bottom line. It may also indicate that Willys could finally afford a bigger press. This frame was modified at serial number 215649 with a new bell crank bracket for an inverted bell crank. The CJ3a was introduced with a CJ2a frame subsequently modified for the CJ3a with a different left side engine mount and later for a side mounted radiator.

DonH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2019 at 2:23am
Nice.  Using the MAXIMUM thickness is a clever way to include the early frame and the late frame without specifically calling out the obvious change that occurred in late '48.

I'm not interested in a pissing match with you Don.  Grab you caliper and go measure your own '46 frame.  It will surely match my '46 frame measurement.  Hell, you don't even need a caliper to feel the obvious difference between a 2A and 3A frame. A simple pinch between thumb and finger will suffice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2019 at 5:37pm
To sum up what I stated above:

Gauge as a measurement of sheet steel has been in use since 1893.

CJ2a frame rails are, based on contemporary measurement, are 12 gauge pressed sheet and are reinforced in specific areas with boxing, applied strips of the same gauge sheet, and riveted gussets.

CJ2a frame rails after serial number 199079 are 9 gauge pressed sheet.

CJ2a frames were directly used on the first CJ3a models and were later slightly modified to accommodate new fuel pumps and radiators.

The 1958 Service Manual Frame Specifications are correct.

The original question has been answered factually.

DonH

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2019 at 7:48pm

To sum up what I stated above:

 

Gauge as a measurement of sheet steel has been in use since 1893. 

 Again, I was told by people here that are far smarter than I, that “gauge” was not how metal was measured at Willys Overland in the 40s.  So, find a listing in the service manual that says a specific component was such and such “gauge”, then I will concede. 

 

CJ2a frame rails are, based on contemporary measurement, are 12 gauge pressed sheet and are reinforced in specific areas with boxing, applied strips of the same gauge sheet, and riveted gussets.

  No argument here.  That said, the service manual doesn’t say “gauge”.  The original poster asked what gauge?  I gave him an answer based on actual measurements taken from actual Jeeps.  I never suggested that a 3A frame was stronger.  I said it was a superior product.  So in the real world, if a product can be made just as strong and at a better cost, then how is that not superior?  In the manufacturer’s world, that is the holy grail we all hope to find.  Now we can pass that savings to our pocket or on to the consumer in the form of a lower price.

 

CJ2a frame rails after serial number 199079 are 9 gauge pressed sheet. 

 No. They are a MAXIMUM .01495”…as the service manual states.  Right?


CJ2a frames were directly used on the first CJ3a models and were later slightly modified to accommodate new fuel pumps and radiators. 

Not true.  At least not according to Bob Westerman’s book about the 3A.  Perhaps he is wrong.  Or the press release shown in his book bragging about the new improved windshield wiper system is wrong.  Can’t offer a new improved wiper system with a 2A frame.

 

The 1958 Service Manual Frame Specifications are correct. 

Yes, as I conceded.   This is an absurd way to capture a major change in the 2A frame without having to offer specifics of an early frame and a late frame.  I work in the steel door manufacturing industry.  All specs in my world (and frankly most industries using steel in manufacturing) list a minimum steel thickness in their requirements.  Not a Maximum.  Not an excuse.  I should pay better attention.    

 

The original question has been answered factually.  Yes it was…by me…in my first response.  Was it not?

 

I fear you were put off by my claim that the 3A is superior when compared to a 2A.  You don’t know me, so I should explain that I often attempt to goad my 2A friends into a friendly back and forth banter discussing the merits of both the 2A and the 3A.  It is always in fun and we all go away having a good laugh.  (Note my little winky guy at the end of my first statement.)  Bottom line, life is too short to be agitated over stuff like this.  So, if you see me post, just don’t open it.  And if you do open it, don’t get too sideways over it, just relax.  I might be trying to have a little fun.  Or, is it not okay to have a little fun?



Edited by athawk11 - 13 June 2019 at 7:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2019 at 2:54am
Tim has both a 2A and a 3A, so he has grounds to know which is the superior Jeep.  Even though he's wrong.  LOL
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