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Ground Strap

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athawk11 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2019 at 1:08pm
One quick suggestion.  Pull the air horn and prime the carburetor before attempting to start the Willys.  Will it start after only a couple attempts?
1- 1946 CJ2A   
2- 1949 CJ3A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alpine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2019 at 4:53pm
Before the amp gauge shorted out, I put in the new carb and it started within 2 to 3 attempts but I had to use the Schumacher. I was able to start it about 10 times (just wanted to make sure it would start before I put in a new battery). So I purchased a new battery because the old one was worn out. After installing the new battery and now the new gauge, it will not start. I will try and post of videos trying to start with the Schumacher and without. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2019 at 5:53pm
If all else fails - You might test the starter as others have suggested.  If you can't take it to a shop, you should be able to check the field coils for resistance and continuity.  Check the resistance readings you get, they should be the same for each field coil.  There are two field coils in the stock starter.  If one of the field coils is bad the starter will spin fine on the bench but will have a hard time spinning the engine.  If it has a bad field coil you should be able to replace it yourself (getting the screw out can be a pain).  There is probably a rebuild guide over on the G503 Page.

Here is a link to a procedure to check the field coils.  

Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2019 at 6:16pm
I suggested the above because fuel in the carburetor bowl will evaporate over a certain amount of time.  If the fuel pump check valves are not "checking", the fuel has a tendency to drift back down to the tank.   This is also true if there is a small leak in a fuel line or connection.  This generally causes the multiple start attempts while the fuel is being drawn back up to the carburetor, all the way from the tank.

From my perspective...I don't have a 6v system.  I am often around a lot of Flat Fenders that are 6v.  I am always struck by how slow they turn over in the start up...when compared to my 12v Jeeps. I only offer this perspective because your 6v system may actually be performing just fine.  But if you're only comparing in to the high torque starters on a more modern vehicle, you may think there is something wrong with it.

The other troubleshooting step I mentioned plays off your overall symptoms.  8 to 10  start attempts without starting will tax even a new 6v battery eventually.  Another quick way to tell if there is fuel available at start up...After the Willys has been sitting for a day, pull the air horn, then pull on the accelerator linkage and listen for/see if fuel squirts into the carburetor throat.  If there is no squirting fuel, dump some in there (a couple tablespoons worth) then try to start it.  If it attempts to fire right away, you might have a bad pump, or a slow air leak in the fuel delivery system.       
1- 1946 CJ2A   
2- 1949 CJ3A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2019 at 6:23pm
Also clean the spark plugs after a bunch of failed attempts to start the Jeep.  They can become loaded with carbon and lower your chances of getting it started while you trouble shoot this problem or these problems.
Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alpine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 1:13am
Tonight I got home and tried to start the jeep without the Schumacher and it started right up on the third try (no video). Turned it off to try again and it would not start. I tried about 10 times. Finally I put it on the Schumacher and after the 5th or 6th try it fired right up. 

I have uploaded three videos. One is trying to start without the Schumacher, trying to start with the Schumacher, and the final video is actual starting with the Schumacher. 

The one without the charger is what I normally experience and it will not start. Very confusing that I was able to start it the first try tonight. 

1) Not Starting Without Schumacher - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt3pBkUMOms
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 2:32am
   It sounds like it is turning over ok on it's own.  Have you tried starting it with the accelerator down and without the choke being pulled?  If tuned good these engines start real easy once you find out what they like.

   Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 2:43am
  Some things I noticed - 

It does seem to be cranking slowly, even for a 6-volt system. Something is not right. Starter drawing too many amps or a resistance somewhere. Notice the fuel gauge bouncing as the load on the starter is increased and decreased by compression. A good test would be to find someone who can measure the starter draw in amps on the jeep as you try to start it. 

In the second video, it cranks about like it should. Two things you need to do: CHOKE IT! as my grampa would have said. When the engine is cold, it needs a richer mixture to fire up. If it was hot when you filmed that, I take it back. When it fires up, only push the choke in partway, it needs the choke until it warms up. How much? You need to learn that by experience. Every vehicle is different. When mine fires up, I put my first two fingers between the choke knob and the dash and push the choke in until my fingers stop it. I have another one that only allows me to push the choke in about the thickness of my fingers. After it warms up a bit, you can push it in all the way, a little at a time. The other thing is, crank on it until it starts. Give it a chance. It's not likely to start in one or two seconds of cranking. Lean on it until it goes. If it does not start in ten seconds or so, you might give the starter a break. It will take a lot more than that to damage anything.

In the third video, you choked it and it started. I think if you had leaned on it a bit longer it would have gone.

I think if you find out why it cranks slowly, and get over being afraid to stay on the starter, you'll be fine.  BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 3:49am
Bruce,
Great comments about the choke usage. These things certainly have a personality.
 
Alpine,
Have you had that battery professionally tested? Sometimes you just get a bad one.
 
Also, after cranking have you felt the battery cables to see how hot they are? Be careful, if it is extremely hot you are pulling too many amps or have undersized or defective cables.
 
Micah
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1965 Johnson Furnace Company M416 #6-1577
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alpine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 11:49am
Bruce W - How do you measure the starter draw (I am terrible at knowing all of the electrical testing but have a meter and feel comfortable doing it as long as I know I am doing it correctly.)All the videos were taken after the initial starting andletting it get warm. It was around normal running temp when I turned it off and then recorded these videos.

Steelyard - Yes, i checked all the cables and none were hot. I would say the positive cable had a slight warmth near the battery but nowhere near hot. 

I will eventually take the battery in but I feel pretty confident the battery is not the issue. I had similar problems with the previous battery even when it was knew. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 12:01pm
According to the Autolite service manual, the max no load current draw of an MZ 4113 starter is 70 amps at 5.5 volts.  This is far beyond what most home mechanics have the equipment to safely measure.  That's why it is best to take it to a starter/alternator repair shop.   
1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RSR_MK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 12:24pm
The condition of the foot switch can be an issue. The newer lower cost switches are not made as well as the originals were. Have you checked the condition of the foot switch?  How you press on them can effect how the contacts make, just a thought. I have found them to be an issue before to go completely out. 


Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alpine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 1:56pm
I bought the foot switch from either RFJP or Debella. I got the good one after previous issues with a bad foot starter. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RSR_MK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 2:34pm
Good to be able to rule that out. This type of an issue can make you pull your hair out. 

Just worked out a similar issue with my sons cj5. It had been hard to start for about two years and I thought it was electrical. It would pull start fine, you could jump start it or if your timing was good, you could crank on it for a bit and then turn the key to run and it would fire right up. I was sure it was electrical. He brought it over about a week ago and the battery was low, checked and the generator was not charging. He wanted to go with an alternator, kids these days, so I changed that out and got it charging. Had a kit for the carburetor and it needed it. Rebuilt the YF and now it starts fine. Before the carb rebuild it would turn over fine but would not even hit. I was sure it was electrical but ended up being fuel related. 

Good luck,

Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alpine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 3:21pm
This is what is frustrating. Initially I was thinking electrical issue and I thought I had a generator problem but I am not sure if it would cause starting issues other than the battery not being charged for the next start. I  think the generator may be working correctly now anyway. The starter seems strong enough, I believe it is grounded. 

 I also need to take a look at the plugs. 


Edited by Alpine - 20 Mar. 2019 at 4:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 5:07pm
  Alpine, the meter for measuring starter draw will either be placed alongside either cable, or have a ring that fits around the cable. All of the starter-draw amperage does not flow thru the meter, the meter senses it as it "goes by".
  I'm sure you have said that all of your connections are clean and tight, but two of the most-overlooked connections are right there at the battery - the cable/post connections. Are they clean and shiny, inside and out, and tight?  
  The jumpy gas gauge still has me thinking we've got an amperage draw problem. A heavily-drawing starter can also steal all of the amperage in the system and leave none for the coil to use.
  BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeorgiaFlattie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2019 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by jaksjep jaksjep wrote:

Originally posted by Rus Curtis Rus Curtis wrote:

Originally posted by binthere binthere wrote:

.... making the 12v starter turn twice as fast.......
 
You can also keep your 6V starter attached when you convert to 12V and the starter will run about twice as fast (but probably last half as long).


My Dad did that with his Jeep.  That 6v starter would scream when he hit the switch!!

I'm now question my electrical system even more. It's been converted to 12v but looks to still have the original 6v starter and it doesn't spin that fast when cranking it. The wiring harness as a whole needs to be ripped out and replaced so I wouldn't be surprised if there are more issues that I haven't found yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar. 2019 at 5:19am
after watching the video its cranking slow but it sounds like your timing is too far advanced causing it to work hard, some thing to check.
something you can try is pull the plugs and see how it cranks,
for me I started out with a similar problem and found the new bushing in the bellhousing was just a little too tight combined with a poor ground on the starter to the bellhousing and at the frame to the starter, it was a combination of very small problems
lets go for a rip eh bud

Andy
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