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head bolt/stud leaking

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wheelie View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 Nov. 2022 at 7:24pm
  I know this has been gone over several times at least. I've read several posts in a search and just want to clarify a bit. Soooooo..........

  A friend of mine called me and said that one of the head bolts on his 3A is seeping antifreeze. One just behind the thermostat housing. He says he can turn the nut by hand, on the stud, when the engine is cool but after driving it and getting engine warm, it is tight enough that he can no longer turn it. Makes sense. 

I asked him to confirm that just the nut is turning and not the stud itself. Waiting to hear back.

So, if it's just the nut, I will re-torque the head bolts in sequence, starting at a low torque value and working up to spec on a cold engine. 

However, if the whole stud is turning, I'll spin it all the way out, after draining down the coolant, and try to clean the stud and reseal the bottom threads (into the block) with #2 Black Permatex. 

My question is: Do you just turn the stud in by hand until it's tight or what??? Is the stud to be torqued to a certain value and if so, how to do you torque something that threads into a through hole? Or is it not a through hole? I assume that if coolant can pass by the threads of the stud, it must be a through hole. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. 

If none of this works, I guess the head will come off. Or maybe he'll just throw some stop leak in it at that point, as mentioned in past threads, though it will go against my advice and better judgement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov. 2022 at 10:02pm
I have never replaced a stud with the head on, but AFAIK there is no torque value on just installing the stud, but I am not sure how you are going to turn it to get it snugged into the block. May be able to jam two nuts onto it and use that, but to get it all the way in the top nut won't have full thread. You could use a bolt in that position instead of a stud and nut.

It is troubling that he can turn the nut by hand. It is was ever properly torqued in the first place this should not be possible. I am wondering if the threads are stripped out in the block.


Edited by Oldpappy - 22 Nov. 2022 at 10:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drm101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov. 2022 at 8:35am
I would pull the head and replace the head gasket, as well as inspect all the studs and the threads in the block, and shave the head flat. It's easy and inexpensive. If you need a bolt, they have them at Tractor Supply for a reasonable price. I just did this in summer and Fel Pro makes a gasket for the L134.
The studs do go into the coolant passages. I have heli-coiled several of the head bolt threads in our block. It seems like every time I pull the head, which thankfully isn't often, I have to heli-coil a hole or two. 



Edited by drm101 - 23 Nov. 2022 at 8:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJ2A60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov. 2022 at 12:46pm
I wouldn't try to seal those holes with permatex. A heli-coil, as drm101 points out, is the correct solution if the threads are messed up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov. 2022 at 1:45pm
  If the threads are NOT messed up, they still need to be sealed, and Permatex #2 has worked well for many years. Im not saying that it’s the only thing that will work, but it’s what I use. 
  I would not pull the head until it became evident that it was actually needed. I would R&R that stud and clean and seal the threads as you suggested. I would attempt to tighten the nut to spec first, to determine whether the threads are still viable. If it won’t tighten, well then, you know what comes next. 
  The stud holes are through, into the water jacket, hence the need to seal them. They have a bit of a shoulder at the end of the threads that butts against the block, but they shouldn’t be tightened against the block any more than hand tight. I suspect that the act of torquing the nuts also tightens the studs in the block a bit more. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CMCSSeabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov. 2022 at 5:50pm
That is exactly what I would do, in that exact order. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov. 2022 at 6:31pm
X3 on what Bruce W said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov. 2022 at 6:50pm
The engine I was working on today had been leaking around several of the studs as testified to by the rust that had accumulated around them. I had the head off anyway, so I pulled and replaced all of the studs with new ones. None of those I pulled appeared to have been sealed.

I too like Permatex #2 for this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheelie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov. 2022 at 8:07pm
  Thank you gentlemen. My friend is out of town for Thanksgiving so, I will start on this next week maybe. 

Very nice clarification on my questions Bruce. Thank you. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Norris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2023 at 10:34am
So I needed to remove my governor bracket and found I have this issue with these two head studs. So I have a couple of questions before I get started with the heli-coil route. 

1. Does the heli coil itself need to be covered in Permatex 2 before inserting? 

2. The auto parts guy recommended putting permanent thread lock on the heli coil before I install. Is that recommended?

3. Going this route, won’t the ‘bump’ on the stud no longer make contact with the block because the hole is bigger due to the heli coil? Will that cause leaks?

Thanks,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2023 at 10:55am
The hole for the Heli Coil is bigger but the coil fills that back in. 

I tore down an engine last year which had 5 stud threads repaired with Heli Coil. It was not leaking around the studs.

I have never used Heli Coils to repair this condition so don't know whether it is a good idea to seal them or not, those in the block mentioned above did not appear to be sealed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2023 at 11:18am
I just went through this on a not very stock small block Chevy.  I ended up using Permatex locker/sealer 57535 to seat the studs in the block.  All the block holes are helicoiled (aluminum block).  57535 is an anaerobic product with an advertised cure time of 72 hours.  It needs a couple days longer than that-------
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2023 at 5:00pm
I also use Permatex locker/sealer 57535 to seal/seat the studs in the block. Then I use Permatex #2 to seal the stud to the Helicoil.

I often install the Helicoils with this sealant & then install the head on the same day. I do not start the engine until the 72 hours have passed. Of course, YMMV. 

IME, It would be difficult to tell if the Helicoil was sealed after very many hours of it being in service. OTOH, It might well be easy to tell if it were not sealed after a few minutes in service. Some folks have not sealed the Helicoils & not had them leak. My luck does not run that way.

BTW, If the studs seep a bit after installing the Helicoil, just run the engine through a few heat cycles tightening the head bolts/studs as appropriate. They will often seal up if you give them a chance.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Norris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2023 at 8:28pm
Thanks for all the feedback. 

Bill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dasvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2023 at 11:17pm
Don’t afraid of Bars leak sealer.  
Most if not all manufacturers put something similar in from the factory. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paulson1948 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2023 at 8:52pm
Hello folks, I'm new to this L134 build & there's  a couple things here that I'm a little unsure of, relating to this thread.. 
So when I got my jeep home, first thing I did is pulled the head off, was leaking & a couple studs were loose.  I ended up installing 4-6 heli coils in. I was not happy with the heli coiled holes, studs seemed willy nilly & I was about to put the head back on, I had noticed some little cracks between coolant holes & stud threads, not wanting to risk it, I bought a different motor, welder motor & going to use the block only off of it. 
I did take the studs back out & the sealer was still wet after a month, #2 permatex, 80015, form a gasket sealant. Would this really seal with a hot engine?...
So I had taken this welder motor all apart & I had 2 exhaust manifold & 2 head studs that had broken off & had to deal with. After many hours of fighting it, learning along the way, I have ran a tap threw the holes and they are OK, but I'm very hesitant to put together, nervous about the worst that these threads will strip out while tightening the studs with nuts.  
I'm on the fence about heli coils, I've read more good than bad about them, so I shouldn't be this way, but I'm a little nervous to get all together and have the exhaust manifold blowing by it or a head stud leak coolant.  
This build is by no means a restoration. I simply want it to run & tool around with it, but I do not want it to leave me stranded. 
I'm really hoping that I don't need to replace the bearings/crankshaft/cam/rope gaskets/pistons/valves etc...
I am installing an upgraded electronic distributor & clutch/pressure plate assembly while I have the motor out. Makes sense.  I just don't want to drop a grand + internally.  The next motor I will, but not this one if I can help it.  
So with this all being said, back to the threads.. Can a guy re-thread the holes to the next size larger bolts without heli coils & not give me much grief?
I know just enough to do this work myself, I've been having fun with it but now it's springtime & want it together.  
1. Can I take it to a machine shop to fix threads without removing shafts/bearings? I could re-thread myself if someone gave me confidence 
2. Can a machine shop plane the block without leaving metal flakes everywhere & have to replace all I mentioned above that I didn't want to touch?
I've heard so much about how bullet proof these motors are supposed to be, so hoping I don't need to completely overhaul, this '48 CJ2A is too far gone to do a complete ground up resto. I just want to have fun with it & start another project that will be a ground up restoration, but I can't until this one is drivable. If I have to next winter, so be it, but I'd lobe to drive it this summer first.  
Any honest opinions is greatly appreciated! 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2023 at 11:49pm
If you do not feel confident installing heilicoils or other type inserts take the engine to a professional who does. If you wreck it it just costs more

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Norris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2023 at 7:22pm
So I finally heli coiled my two head stud holes using the suggestions here. Worked like a champ. 

So I got it all back together and my Jeep still ran like garbage. 

Some background of what I did. Rebuilt the distributor, new plugs and wires, had Scout Pilot rebuild my carb and replaced the pcv with a period Seal Test. Took all of that apart to see what I screwed up. 

Finally thought of the pcv. I took my old one apart and compared it to the new one. Holes in the cone of the new one were much larger and the spring softer. So I cleaned up my old one to see if it mattered at all. It purrs now. That stupid valve must have caused my vacuum leak. 

My original issue was worn bushings in the carb which scout pilot rebushed causing vacuum leaks. 

Bill



Edited by Bill Norris - 07 June 2023 at 7:23pm
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