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Help Wanted with Measurements of the PTO gear box
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Todd Paisley View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Apr. 2021 at 10:11pm
If anyone has a rear PTO gear box installed on their Jeep with the stock draw bar, could I ask you to make a couple measurements and take a few photos?  I am trying to figure out how the CJ-2 prototype PTO gear box may have been sized.  Unfortunately only one close up photo of it survives.  And the original drawing of the assembly doesn't seem to have survived either.  I am looking to create a 3D model of this (eventually have the units cast for my CJ-2 pilot models).  I am trying to guestimate the dimensions based on the photos.

Here is the photo:



It had dual shafts with the left one dedicated to the drum pulley drive.  It has a lever that I am assuming engaged and disengaged the drum.  I assume the right one was always on whenever you engaged the front PTO unit on the transfer case.

Here is what I am interested in getting help with:

1) Distance from the rear most point of the angle iron of the draw bar to the pintle hook mounting area (K member).  From the photo, it looks like the housing for the right most shaft appears to extend the same amount as the draw bar.  (maybe slightly past?) What do you guys think?

2) Photo taken directly above the PTO gear box to see how far the production gear box extends past the end of the draw bar.  Kind of like at this angle:



3) Distance the production PTO gear box extends past the end of the draw bar.

4) Length of the production drum pulley drive (from where it is bolted to the gear box to the end.  This does not include the drum itself.  Just the drive gear housing.)

5) Length of the production drum.

Any help would be appreciated!  I would like to bring back this lost piece of Jeep history.

If you are someone who is good at 3D modeling and would like to help, I would appreciate that as well!  Especially if there is some software that can guestimate certain distances by telling it known measurements.

Thanks!

Todd.


Edited by Todd Paisley - 27 Apr. 2021 at 11:18pm
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
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I Can’t supply those measurements because mine has a newgren installed in lieu of the drawbar but what a great idea to have the pto shaft carry through so you don’t have to take the pulley off to use a powered implement.
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I have one on my 48 & I would be glad to provide measurements, however it looks nothing like the photo.

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Thanks!  I appreciate the help!  What I am looking for are these measurements:

A - Distance from the middle of the left cover to the rear crossmember.
B - Distance from the center of the left mounting bolt to the center of the right mounting bolt.
C - Distance from a straight line from the center of the left mounting bolt to the center of the middle mounting bolt.
D - Distance from a straight line from the center of the right mounting bolt to the center of the middle mounting bolt.
E - Width of the housing
F - Distance from a straight line from the center of the left housing cover mounting bolt to the center of the top middle mounting bolt.
G - Distance from a straight line from the center of the top middle housing cover mounting bolt to the center of the top right mounting bolt.
H - Distance from a straight line from the center of the top right housing cover mounting bolt to the center of the bottom right mounting bolt.
I - Distance from a straight line from the center of the bottom right housing mounting bolt cover to the center of the bottom middle mounting bolt.
J - Distance from a straight line from the center of the bottom middle housing mounting bolt cover to the center of the left mounting bolt.
K - Distance from the end of the housing to the raised vent area.
L - Width of the raised vent area.
M - Diameter of the round casting around the PTO shaft.
N - Width of the round casting around the PTO shaft.
O - Distance from the straight line from the center of the bottom left drum pulley drive mounting bolt to the center of the top left drum pulley mounting bolt.
P - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top left drum pulley drive mounting bolt to the center of the top right drum pulley mounting bolt.
Q - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top right drum pulley drive mounting bolt to the center of the bottom right drum pulley mounting bolt.
R - Distance from the straight line from the center of the bottom right drum pulley drive mounting bolt to the center of the bottom left drum pulley mounting bolt.
S - Distance from the end of the cross bar to the rear cross member.
T - Distance from the straight line from the center of the bottom left drum pulley drive cover mounting bolt to the center of the top left drum pulley drive cover mouning bolt.
U - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top left drum pulley drive cover mounting bolt to the center of the top right drum pulley drive cover mouning bolt.
V - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top right drum pulley drive cover mounting bolt to the center of the bottom right drum pulley drive cover mouning bolt.
W - Distance from the straight line from the center of the bottom right drum pulley drive cover mounting bolt to the center of the bottom left drum pulley drive cover mouning bolt.
X - Length of the drum pulley drive housing.
Y - Width of the drum pulley.
Z - Diameter of the drum pulley
AA - Width of the drum pulley drive housing.
BB - Length of the drum pulley housing.
CC - Width of the drum pulley housing.
DD - Distance from the end of the drum pulley drive housing to the flange for the drum pulley housing.
EE - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top right drum pulley housing mounting bolt to the center of the middle right drum pulley housing mounting bolt.
FF - Distance from the straight line from the center of the middle right drum pulley housing mounting bolt to the center of the bottom right drum pulley housing mounting bolt.
GG - Distance from the straight line from the center of the bottom right drum pulley housing mounting bolt to the center of the bottom left drum pulley housing mounting bolt.
HH - Distance from the straight line from the center of the bottom left drum pulley housing mounting bolt to the center of the middle left drum pulley housing mounting bolt.
II - Distance from the straight line from the center of the middle left drum pulley housing mounting bolt to the center of the top left drum pulley housing mounting bolt.
JJ - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top left drum pulley housing mounting bolt to the center of the top right drum pulley housing mounting bolt.
KK - Thickness of the drum pulley housing
LL - Width of the cross member
MM - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top draw bar mounting bolt to the center of the bottom draw bar mounting bolt.
NN - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top left pintle hook area to the center of the top right pintle hook area.
OO - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top right pintle hook area to the bottom right pintle hook area.
PP - Distance from the straight line from the center of the left draw bar mounting plate to the right draw bar mounting plate.
QQ - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top left bearing cover screw to the top right bearing cover screw.
RR - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top right bearing cover screw to the bottom right bearing cover screw.
SS - Distance from the straight line from the center of the bottom right bearing cover screw to the bottom left bearing cover screw.
TT - Distance from the straight line from the center of the bottom left bearing cover screw to the top left bearing cover screw.
UU - Distance from the straight line from the center of the top left PTO bearing cover screw to the right PTO bearing cover screw.
VV - Distance from the straight line from the center of the right PTO bearing cover screw to the bottom left PTO bearing cover screw.
WW - Distance from the straight line from the center of the bottom left PTO bearing cover screw to the top left PTO bearing cover screw.
XX - Diameter of the PTO shaft










Thanks!



Edited by Todd Paisley - 01 May 2021 at 1:42am
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
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Does the Turner book contain any of those notes?
I think I have a top view of an Agrijeep frame with that pto installed
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Oh.  That would be great!  I noticed a few photos that show the early PTO gear box.  One of them doesn't have the drum pulley drive on it.  Not sure if a better resolution photo exists of this:



There are a few others that show glimpses of the gear box:






Do you know anyone who has 640300 - 640600?  Lot of the parts are in that range.  Interesting would be:

640310 PTO Prop. Shaft Assm. 2nd Design
640312 PTO & Pulley Drive Assm. 2nd Design
640475 Pulley Support Housing Assm. P.T.O.
640476 Pulley Support Housing Gasket P.T.O.
640477 P.T.O. Gear (Driven) (23 Teeth)
640478 P.T.O. Drive Gear (25 Teeth)
640479 Bearing Retainer Assm. P.T.O. Input Shaft
640480 P.T.O. Stub Shaft & Sleeve Assm.
640481 P.T.O. Stub Shaft
640482 P.T.O. Sleeve
640488 Bearing Retainer Output Shaft P.T.O.
640489 Input Shaft P.T.O.
640490 Gear Case Assm. P.T.O.
640491 Bearing Retainer P.T.O. (Input Shaft)
640492 Pulley Shaft P.T.O.
640497 Pulley Drive Pinion Bearing Cap P.T.O.
640498 Power Take Off Shaft (1-3/8 SAE Std.)
640499 Gear Carrier Assm. P.T.O.
640500 Cover - Output Shaft - P.T.O.
640501 Pulley Support Housing - P.T.O.
640503 Gear Carrier - P.T.O.
640504 Gear Case - P.T.O.
640539 P.T.O. Adapter & Bearing Cup Assy.

Trying to visualize how the lever to engage the drum pulley works.  Looks like the gears for the gear box were 23 and 25. (Versus 20 and 24 for the production ones.)  If the gears are constantly moving, then there needed some way to engage one of those gears to apply power to the shaft running the drum pulley drive.  I am assuming that the dimensions of the drum pulley and drive will be similar to the production CJ-2A.  So the lever would extend through the drum pulley drive housing to the PTO gear housing.  That would make it very difficult to service.

I am assuming that the way they did this was to engage the drive gear in a similar fashion as the PTO front unit does on the transfer case.  Not a lot of room to fit all that in though!

Thanks!
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
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A=4 1/4"
B=13"
C=8 1/4"
D=7 1/4"
E=4"
F=3 3/8" O.C.
G=3 3/8" O.C.
H=3 3/8" O.C.
I=3 3/8" O.C.
J=3 3/8" O.C.
K=1 1/2"
L=1 1/8"
O=5 1/4" O.C.
P=4" O.C.
Q=4 1/2" O.C.
R=4" O.C.
S=4 1/4"
T=2 3/4" O.C.
U=2 3/4" O.C.
V=2 3/4" O.C.
W=2 3/4" O.C.
X=8"
Paper Pulley is (Y)7 3/4" W by (Z) 8 1/2" L

AA=4"X4"
BB=6"
CC= 3 1/4"
DD= 3/4" TO CASTING EDGE  1 1/8" PLUS END CAP
EE=2 1/4" O.C.
FF= 2 1/4" O.C.
GG= 2 1/4" O.C.
HH= 2 1/4" O.C.
II= 2 1/4" O.C.
JJ = 2 1/4" O.C.
KK= 1/4"





Edited by lowenuf - 30 Apr. 2021 at 2:07pm
45 #10012
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45 #10163 ACM #188
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  Will the flat pulley gear box mount 2 different ways?  I notice the pictures above show one is facing right and another is facing left.

    Jim
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I checked 6405XX last night.
I'll check numbers below that today
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Originally posted by WeeWilly WeeWilly wrote:

  Will the flat pulley gear box mount 2 different ways?  I notice the pictures above show one is facing right and another is facing left.

    Jim

Its a different prototype gearbox
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Thanks lowenuf for the measurements!  I really appreciate the help!
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
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The PTO rear gear box that is in the first post I did is a prototype gear box.  It is actually the second design.  There was an earlier design which basically just a box that connected directly to the shaft coming from the transfer case.  

I used a photo from the internet that shows the production drum pulley to get dimensions.  There are a few experimental drawings that survive for some minor things.  That is because the CJ-2 PTO parts became production part numbers (The experimental part number was substituted for a production part number.  Most of those are in the early 640XXX part number range.)  So I don't have those.  But if the experimental drawing for a gasket or shim matches the production CJ-2A parts, I can assume the dimensions for the second design PTO gear box are the same.

The more significant experimental drawings that have survived are:

E-38434 - Belt Pulley
E-38435 - Pulley Support Housing

If these match the dimensions that lowenuf supplied, then I know the production CJ-2A ones can be used as a basis for constructing the early version.

Also interesting are:

E-38433 - Power Take Off Mounting Plate and Bearing Retainer - I believe this is the cast piece on the back side of the PTO case where the input shaft goes through.

E-38449 - Shift Fork - Pulley Drive - So I have the dimensions of the piece the shift connects with to engage the drum pulley.  Just not sure how that will interact with the PTO drive gear.

E-38454 - Shift Rod Oil Seal - Pulley Drive - So I know what the diameter of the shift rod is.

E-38465 - PTO Drive Gear Bearing Gasket - So I know the dimensions of the bearing cover of the right most PTO shaft.

But if 640312 exists somewhere, then all the guesswork would be over since that is the part number of that second design rear PTO gear box.
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
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Originally posted by lowenuf lowenuf wrote:


E=4"
F=3 3/8"
G=3 3/8"
H=3 3/8"
I=3 3/8"
J=3 3/8"

O=5 1/4" O.C.
P=4" O.C.
Q=4 1/2" O.C.
R=4" O.C.
S=4 1/4"
T=2 3/4" O.C.
U=2 3/4" O.C.
V=2 3/4" O.C.
W=2 3/4" O.C.
X=8"

AA=4"X4"
BB=6"


Paper Pulley is 7 3/4" W by 8 1/2" L


Hey Todd,
I had planned on getting your measurements this weekend, however I guess LOWE beat me to the punch and got them for you already. Maybe I should get him to do my two rear early top bow uprights for my 45 since he now has the free time!

Edited by 3-48s - 30 Apr. 2021 at 2:07pm
1945 CJ2A #10536
1948 CJ2A #176528 "Elmer"
1948 CJ2A #155970 "Gray Mule"
1948 CJ2A #155365 "Old Yeller" (GONE)
BANTAM T3C # 6147 (GONE)
BANTAM T3C # 30856
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If you can fill in the measurements lowenuf missed, that would be great.  Especially the steel pulley dimensions.  Thanks!




Edited by Todd Paisley - 30 Apr. 2021 at 4:09pm
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
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OK Todd, I will pull out the Luzon Red 48 this weekend and get you the Dims!
1945 CJ2A #10536
1948 CJ2A #176528 "Elmer"
1948 CJ2A #155970 "Gray Mule"
1948 CJ2A #155365 "Old Yeller" (GONE)
BANTAM T3C # 6147 (GONE)
BANTAM T3C # 30856
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OK.  Great!  I added a few more measurements.  Thanks!
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
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