"Improved" CJ2A Canvas Top |
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Stev
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Posted: 20 Oct. 2016 at 7:29pm |
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Greetings,
I am in the beginning stage of creating an “improved” CJ2A
top with a historical flair. It will be a combination of the best of the
historical CJ2A top, the Early Land Rover top and modern fasteners. This top will be designed to be used on a
CJ2A with stock bows. JPet and I have
been going back and forth on this and he has persuaded me to post this in the
hopes that it may be of value to others creating tops in the future. Materials: On hand I
have a 1946 CJ2A w/ top bows & door frames (3A type frames), canvas (Mil Spec
.037 thick olive drab), 90+ yards of edge binding in various widths, 20 plus
WW2 straps with buckles and ends, window material, Velcro, black thread and the
1939 Singer 111-152. These are my design parameters in order of importance: 1. Function
– foul weather while off-roading and plowing 2.
Historical feel – materials and style base design 20-foot look 3.
Practical for use in the field. 4. Easy
access to inside of the rear. 5. Ease of
installation. Things that I want to avoid when making a top: 1. Turn
style fasteners that attach to the canvas.
I am OK with the turn style fasteners that screw into the
windshield. But want to avoid the ones
that are mounted into the canvas. Where
possible I would like to use Velcro or WW2 style straps instead. Velcro will be versatile as the canvas changes
with age and weather. 2. The
two-piece roof looks great and does not leak according to those with experience
with them, But I want a single section full roof without the inner half top
flap on the inside behind the seats. Things that I want to design into the top: 1. Stock
looking Doors from the outside. 2. Drivers
door with a hand signal zipper with a storm flap. 3. Doors to
have Velcro instead of turn buckles at the windshield arm pivot and not the
twist fasteners. 4. Single
piece roof. Seamed down the middle. 5. Side
curtains that are sewn on to the roof (similar the early Land Rovers). 6. Side
curtains that roll up for access while the back is still in the down position. 7. Side
curtains and rear curtains that can be rolled and buckled in the up position. 8. Straps
to hold the rolled curtains in the up position - sewn into the top so they are
not seen from the outside unless they are in use. The plan is to make the roof and side
curtains overlap about 2 inches and create a slot between the curtain and top
that the strap can poke through when they are being used to hold the rolled
curtains up. 9. Rear
curtain will look like a stock CJ2A but with several changes: The rear corners will use the style of closure used on the early 1950 Land Rovers with a
tuck tab to join the side curtains to the rear curtain at the corner. The tuck tabs will use Velcro and not a
buckle like the Rover top. Unlike the
Rover the tuck tab corner pocket, the pocket to be sewn on the inside of the side flap making
them invisible from the outside. The
rear curtain will use the WW2 straps w/ buckles like the standard CJ2A top – to
attach the bottom along the rear of the tub. 10. Add storm
flaps along the doors and where the top joins to the side and back of tub
(still need to design these). I am
considering using a 5” piece of canvas folded in half with a piece of ¼” rope
sewed into the fold to create a bead. Then
sew the now 2.5” rope bead on the inside of the top and doors where so it rests on
the tub with about a 2-inch storm flap. The flap can be pulled in over the edge of the
tub to create a good seal for blowing snow or it can be left just hanging
straight down for light weather use. In the hanging straight down position the rope bead will be about 1/2 inches above the bottom edge binding. 11.
Considering mounting the side curtain bottom buckles on the outside like
WW2 MB curtain for access reasons (CJ2A are mounted on the inside). Still undecided – if they are on the inside
they could be hard to get to from the outside and they would interfere with the
storm flaps. If they are on the outside
they will be subject to the weather and getting caught on brush. 12. Still
need to design the rear curtain - the 1946 trail Jeep has a water can and a tire
mounted on the back – so a zippered arch window like the CJ2A style might make
for better access without deal with the straps around the rear mounted gear. JPet
has cautioned me on the shrinkage I may encounter on the canvas and its potential
problems with the zipper. 13. Door
windows are a stock triangle design.
Side and rear window based on usability and historical design. Temped to make them a little larger than the stock
gun port armored car window look. |
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Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored |
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Bob W
Member Sponsor Member x 4 Joined: 08 Aug. 2005 Location: Monticello, NY Status: Offline Points: 1693 |
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Take a look at an M-38 enclosure for ideas. It already has some of the features you desire.
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jpet
Moderator Group Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 30 Apr. 2008 Location: Ramsey, IL Status: Offline Points: 11174 |
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Looking forward to seeing this design
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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Unkel Dale
Member Joined: 08 Jan. 2012 Location: pittsburgh,pa Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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I do not spend much time here. I am thankful for your posting this project. I need to do this in my winter repair season. My 2a does not see winter, yet no roof. Will you post measurements of the raw cuts and the end sewn measurements? Will you post vendors and costs? Dale
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Unkel Dale
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LesBerg
Member Joined: 09 Apr. 2014 Location: Athol, ID Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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I did a few of these things with my previous top. Let me run down your list and give some feedback, if you don't mind. My first top was made from a civilian canvas tarp and experienced severe shrinkage. This summer, it shrank so bad while installed that it tore out through the roof. I built it with about two inches of shrinkage allowance, and by the time it tore out, it was three inches too short, windshield to rear bow, and four inches too narrow. Bear in mind that my jeep is stretched 24 inches and my top is considerably longer than standard. It also uses a custom frame instead of a bow set.
Edited by LesBerg - 30 Oct. 2016 at 7:53pm |
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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LesBerg
Member Joined: 09 Apr. 2014 Location: Athol, ID Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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continued from previous
I'll get pictures uploaded to my build thread later this evening. Right now, I need to get busy on the leather Plague Doctor mask I'm making for my son's Halloween costume.
Edited by LesBerg - 30 Oct. 2016 at 7:55pm |
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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rocnroll
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Tuscumbia, AL Status: Online Points: 13610 |
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To each his own but do you really want a lockable canvas door? Alot of people carry pocketknives.
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'47 CJ2A PU
'48 CJ2A Lefty "Common sense is not that common" |
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Stev
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 27 July 2016 Location: Cincinnati Status: Offline Points: 2391 |
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LesBerg,
Thanks for the input. Everyone has a cautionary tale about shrinkage. I have use several types of Mil Spec canvas on hand. My current top is a summer top made of a nice tight weave old school waxed Mil Spec canvas. I have not had a lot of shrinkage because I store it inside. I recently picked up two other pieces of Mil Spec canvas. One is a modern non waxed type which I plan to use on this project. I also plan on using Thompson's multi surface water seal on it. I have not decided if I should coat it before or after making the top. Tending towards before. The second piece of Mil Spec is old school waxed but also has a heavy coated side. The coated side is extremely heavy and i don't think it could shrink. I am going to use this canvas to make a set of door coverings and side curtains for the existing summer top. The current plan is to use a heavy loop style zipper on each side to join the top to the side curtains. This will also be a trial run for some of the features on this big project describe above. I have been told that zipper could be a problem so that is something to consider. Rocnroll - I have no plans for locking doors. Stev |
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Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored |
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rocnroll
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Tuscumbia, AL Status: Online Points: 13610 |
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Steve, can't wait to see this top...sounds like a nice one!
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'47 CJ2A PU
'48 CJ2A Lefty "Common sense is not that common" |
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LesBerg
Member Joined: 09 Apr. 2014 Location: Athol, ID Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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Rocnroll,
All locks do is keep honest people honest, but a knifed door or side curtain says 'call the cops' a lot faster than finding something has disappeared hours later. And sometimes it's all it takes to deter someone on the verge of doing something stupid. Around here, people aren't as likely to knife a door in a parking lot as they are to pull open a door like the owner would. I keep a motion-sensing dash cam in the jeep and powered up when I'm out and about in town. And when I'm hunting I have a game camera trained on it. It won't keep things from getting stolen, but it gives the cops a picture. Stev, Let me know how the Thompson's works out. I've found that the non-waxed mil-spec canvas I have doesn't need it, and it doesn't shrink much. I made doors from it last December and they still haven't pulled tight on the frame, even with only an extra half-inch of material all around the edges. I thought about hitting it with Canvak as a belt-and-suspenders approach, but I don't know if that would change the shrinkage or if the two waterproofing treatments would cause problems of some kind. To test it before committing to it on the top, you could make a pair of 1'x1' wooden frames and staple canvas to them. Treat one with the Thompson's, and set them out in the weather . See if the behave the same. The canvas I have soaks through and leaks like mad the first time it's rained on. After that, the outside gets wet and nothing comes through unless there's a significant puddle. Then it just weeps a little. Just a thought. Please post pics as you're working on it, I'm interested in seeing how it comes together. Thanks, Les Edited by LesBerg - 31 Oct. 2016 at 1:23pm |
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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jpet
Moderator Group Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 30 Apr. 2008 Location: Ramsey, IL Status: Offline Points: 11174 |
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I'm hope I'm not chasing a rabbit here but since some discussion on shrinkage is going on, I'll throw this in there and then get off it:
Here is a bunch of information from the past that wil make your head hurt: .... The term "mil-spec" is used often, but which mil-specs they are complying to is often unclear. I'll try to sum it up the best my memory can. MIL-C-43627D is the document that refers to "dimensional stability" and the testing procedure is described in FED-STD-191. Part of the testing procedure is that the fabric is washed in detergent, dried, and ironed. The way I read the document, the fabric can not shrink more than 2% during this procedure either warp or weft. ...... so IMO, there is no reason to preshrink a mil-spec fabric since that is part of its testing ..... that is if the "mil-spec" is MIL-C-43627D. I think FED-STD-191 explains the testing for colorfast but I can't remember. The specifications for dying and aftertreatment are explained in document CCC-C-950F (document now supeceeded). ....... blah, blah, blah, my only point is that when choosing a "mil-spec" fabric, I would make sure that the mil-spec is MIL-C-43627D or a document that superceeds it..... not just "mil-spec" I have read that typically the warp yarns of a square weave fabric will shrink more than the weft yarn. It seems logical to me that a square weave fabric, such as #8 would not shrink anymore warp than it does weft since the yarns are identical and especially if you cut the edges off the fabric. I have not seen significant difference in shrinkage from warp to weft in the fabric I use, but other manufacturers including Dave Pizzoferratto, tell me that they allow for more shrinkage horizontally and of course I have way less experience than Dave. I suppose it has something to do with the way the warp yarns are stretched on the loom compared to the weft yarn that traverses through. ... IDK I think this is more important to know when dealing with a fabric that does not pass FED-STD-191 testing. ... now back to your regularly scheduled top making. |
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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Stev
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 27 July 2016 Location: Cincinnati Status: Offline Points: 2391 |
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Jpet - always good info - all be it a bit overwhelming. The issue I have is I have no idea what mil spec this canvas
is – so testing is needed for shrinkage. This is the Free shrink test I am considering: The test would be to take two pieces of 12” x 12” canvas
sheets from the same bolt that I plan on making the top from. Treat one with Thompson multi surface water
seal (test sample #1) and leave one untreated (test sample #2 - the control). Submerge them both in water rain water for 24
hours (collected in the last month). Then put them between to panes of
glass with a 1/4-inch space between the pieces of glass (so the moisture can
get out) and leave them outside in the Sun for a week. The glass, canvas, ¼” air gap and glass
stack would be put on a black back ground.
I would repeat the test for four cycles - soaking in rain water every 7 days. After 4 weeks, it would be time
to remeasure and see if any shrinkage has accrued. I will note the machine direction on each
piece of canvas at the start of the test. I would expect the canvas to see temps ranging from 150
degrees to 40 degrees between the days in the sun and nights. Any other suggestions for this test? I have everything on hand and can probably
get started as soon as the Thompson’s water seal dries. |
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Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored |
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jpet
Moderator Group Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 30 Apr. 2008 Location: Ramsey, IL Status: Offline Points: 11174 |
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Do you have any technical data on the fabric you are using?
This fabric is 18oz. vat-dyed and that's it? No other after-treatment? Edit: The reason I ask is because I was wondering if when you put on the Thompson water seal, will it react with any treatment that is already on the fabric. I assume that since this fabric is "mil-spec" and it is OD in color that it is class C, i.e. no after treatment.
Edited by jpet - 31 Oct. 2016 at 7:39pm |
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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jpet
Moderator Group Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 30 Apr. 2008 Location: Ramsey, IL Status: Offline Points: 11174 |
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Here are the documents I have been talking about:
IMO, a top maker wants to use a Class B fabric as outlined in CCC-D-950F page 2. class B means the fabric is treated for water repellance and mildew resistants. A Class C fabric is still "mil-spec" even though it is untreated..... that's what i mean when I say, "mil-spec" is not enough. This isn't directed to you Stev, or Les, I'm just speaking to the readers in general. OK .... I'm off
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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Stev
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 27 July 2016 Location: Cincinnati Status: Offline Points: 2391 |
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Here is the Mil Spec on the canvas I have:
The NSN is 8305-00-242-3593 The data is: MILSPEC CCC-C-419 ZZZX
DEPARTURE FROM CITED DESIGNATOR
AS MOD BY COLOR AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ZZZT
NONDEFINITIVE SPEC/STD DATA
I TYPE SFCD
SURFACE CONDITION
HARD HUES
COLOR
OLIVE DRAB, US ARMY, 7 BOTH SIDES FMAT
FIBER MATERIAL
COTTON BASIC FEAT
SPECIAL FEATURES
CLOTH WEIGHT REPRESENTS WEIGHT BEFORE TREATMENT AKKK
CLOTH WEIGHT
20.700 OUNCES PER SQUARE YARD MINIMUM AND 22.800 OUNCES PER SQUARE YARD MAXIMUM AELU
TRADE DESIGNATION
6 ADZC
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
MILDEW RESISTANT, CCC-D-950 AND WATER REPELLENT, CCC-D-950 ABGL
WIDTH
60.000 INCHES NOMINAL Let me know your thoughts. Stev
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Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored |
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Stev
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 27 July 2016 Location: Cincinnati Status: Offline Points: 2391 |
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Also found this definition:
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Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored |
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LesBerg
Member Joined: 09 Apr. 2014 Location: Athol, ID Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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Your test sounds valid to me, and I'm curious as to the outcome.
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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Stev
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 27 July 2016 Location: Cincinnati Status: Offline Points: 2391 |
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I have been reading Mil Spec info and the ASTM tested for shrinkage and mildew resistance CCC-D-950. The spec on this canvas reflects that ASTM Test. So..... we should use it to sew a top...
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Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored |
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