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Is it fuel or ignition |
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MikeD0L 
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Joined: 15 Oct. 2019 Location: Newburgh, NY Status: Offline Points: 20 |
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 Topic: Is it fuel or ignitionPosted: 15 Oct. 2019 at 4:31pm |
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My jeep has been running fine and just
died one day putting along a level grade at 30mph. I have had some
fuel problems in the past but fuel is going into the carter wo
carburetor now as I cleaned the tank and filters and installed a new
flue pump but no matter how many times I turn the motor over trying
to start it the plugs are dry. I sprayed some starting fluid in the
carb as I cranked the motor and nothing just dead so I thought it
must be something else and started looking at the ignition end of it
and found this.
I did the step pick a cylinder from the topic L-134 ignition timing I picked the 1 cylinder and turned the motor to where the compression gauge starts to build pressure. The rotor was on the beginning of the lobe of the #1. I then looked for the timing marks on the flywheel and they appear when the rotor is on the beginning #3 cylinder lobe. Is this a problem? some have said the timing chain could have jumped but everything i read says mine doesnt have a chain its gear to gear. is there a way to tell for sure without removing the cover? also I'm getting spark at the plugs but it wont start. |
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MikeD0L
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Oldpappy
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Joined: 09 Apr. 2018 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 4904 |
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Posted: 15 Oct. 2019 at 7:47pm |
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Chain drive cam engines were in WW2 Jeeps, the timing cover on those has a little post for the spring loaded plunger which is swagged or riveted to the cover and you can see that on the cam end of the cover.
Firing order is 1-3-4-2 and if the rotor is coming up on number 1 wire when number 1 is on compression stroke it does not sound like it has jumped time. The timing mark on the flywheel should be on number 1, but flywheels can be mounted wrong, so I would not worry about that yet. You said you are getting "spark at the plugs, and also "no matter how many times I turn the motor over trying to start it the plugs are dry". With the added clue that it also doesn't fire with starting fluid. If it was out of time, and getting spark you would likely get backfires and flames out of the carb. The dry plugs are telling you it is not getting fuel. If you are sure fuel is getting into the carburetor, and the float valve isn't stuck, it is possible something may be blocking the manifold. Look down into the carburetor and see if the butterfly fell off. I have had that happen. I would then pull the top off the carb to make sure fuel is in the bowl.
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smfulle
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Posted: 15 Oct. 2019 at 7:58pm |
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With the air horn off, do you see fuel squirting when you pump the accelerator by hand? If yes, I suspect it's not fuel.
If you crank it with the distributor cap off, can you see spark at the points? My experience with this kind of failure has been the condenser in the distributor has failed, either internally, or it shifted and is grounding out on the side of the distributor. |
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mbullism
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Posted: 15 Oct. 2019 at 9:44pm |
Been there  It was running, and you're getting spark to the plugs...which are dry. I'd be focusing on fuel. You're putting along at 30mph and something stuck in a jet, or your fuel pump diaphragm split, etc. (guessing) See if your dipstick smells like gas- .02
Edited by mbullism - 15 Oct. 2019 at 9:52pm |
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Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it... Welcome to 1930's Germany
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cpt logger
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Posted: 16 Oct. 2019 at 1:18am |
The first paragraph does indicate that fuel is not the only issue. If it were only a lack of fuel, spaying starting fluid down the carburetor will start the engine. I say the only issue, as I have had both the fuel & the ignition fail at the same time. It is rare, but it does happen. There is spark, but is the spark a bright blue color, or is it orange, or perhaps straw colored? Anything other than bright blue, your ignition is not well. Try this simple test, take the distributor cap off of the distributor, no need to pull the wires/cables off. Safety note: Do not touch the cap while doing this test. While someone cranks the engine over with the ignition on, watch to see if the rotor is turning. If the rotor is not turning, you have found your problem. If it is, are there sparks at the points? If no sparks, check that your points are opening & closing. Are the points burned? If the points look OK, & the gap is correct, replace the condenser. FWIW, My money is on the condenser, but lets make sure first before we waste your time & $$ on a new one. Just a FYI, just because the condenser is new does not mean that it is good. Buy a German Bosch one or one of equal quality. No Chinese junk! The Chinese ones are quite often bad straight out of the box. The India ones are slightly better, only slightly though. IHTH, Cpt Logger.
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MikeD0L
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Joined: 15 Oct. 2019 Location: Newburgh, NY Status: Offline Points: 20 |
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Posted: 16 Oct. 2019 at 3:14am |
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Thanks for the info on the timing chain and timing marks. I looked down the carb and the butterfly is there and opening and fuel is spraying into the carb, so I have no clue why the plugs are dry. I'm no top notch mechanic and have done various motor work on all kinds of equipment but not familiar with this motor. I just got this a few months ago and have done some work and wondered a few times what the heck did they do here so I thought hey maybe there's something I don't know about it. Thanks again for your help!
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MikeD0L
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MikeD0L
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Posted: 16 Oct. 2019 at 3:17am |
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yes i have spark at the points and plugs, i already changed the coil and condenser, the coil mainly because it look old as the hills and i thought i was getting a bad reading on the primary circuit and to get it out from under the dash. the condenser...hey wasn't expensive so figured id eliminate that too.
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MikeD0L
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MikeD0L
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Posted: 16 Oct. 2019 at 3:19am |
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Ill check that out the dip stick to see if i smell anything, thanks
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MikeD0L
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MikeD0L
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Posted: 16 Oct. 2019 at 3:26am |
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Ill have to look at the spark a bit closer, at the plugs it looked more on the white side. I changed the condenser but even if the spark is weak wouldn't starting fluid give me a puff or something?
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MikeD0L
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cpt logger
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Posted: 16 Oct. 2019 at 5:52am |
No, not necessarily. Did the spark get bluer, hotter after the condenser change? Or do you know? Where did you get the new condenser & where was it made? BTW, The coil set up from under the dash is original & fairly valuable to those going for a true restoration. Do not throw any of that away. The bracket included.
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Rus Curtis
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Posted: 16 Oct. 2019 at 3:53pm |
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Ironically, very similar. I had a spark but no fire. I used starting fluid with no results. I changed the new condenser and POW! Instant fire. It seems weird and nonsensical that a new part would be defective.
It can't hurt to try.
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Rus Curtis
Alabama 1954 CJ3B Bantam T3-C |
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MikeD0L
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Posted: 16 Oct. 2019 at 8:47pm |
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the spark at the points is good, its as blue as i've seen. and no i don't throw any original parts away just for that reason.
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MikeD0L
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MikeD0L
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Posted: 16 Oct. 2019 at 9:39pm |
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Ok
i decided to do a compression test for each cylinder, I took all the
plugs out and tested each and all looks ok there as far as
compression goes, however I'm questioning the firing order vers order
of compression. I went from cylinder 1 then 3 then 4 then 2 but what
i noticed is the rotor is not in sync with the compression stroke of
each cylinder. The order of compression as I crank the motor
clockwise is 1, the next cylinder to have compression is #4, the next
cylinder to have compression is #2, and the last cylinder to have
compression is #3. so the firing order is 1, 3, 4, 2 but the
compression order is 1, 4, 2, 3. I checked this three times and if I
have it wired 1,3,4,2 three cylinders are getting spark not on the
compression stroke.
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MikeD0L
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RSR_MK
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Posted: 17 Oct. 2019 at 1:12am |
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Ok, first let’s make sure you are aware the distributor rotates counter clockwise. That’s a common issue folks have. Second I’m not sure how you are determining the order of compression but the crank and pistons haven’t changed, valve issues could give a false reading but not likely in the 100 psig range.
I would start by making sure number one is up on compression, check the rotor position, ensure it’s on number one then check the other three in a counter clockwise direction.
Mike |
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MikeD0L
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Posted: 17 Oct. 2019 at 3:09am |
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i confirmed the # 1 cylinder by hand cranking the motor clockwise and watched when it started building compression as the rotor went into the #1 position, I moved the compression tester to the #3 cylinder continued to crank the motor clockwise as the distributor turned counter clockwise, no compression until the rotor hit the #2 position, i moved the compression tester to the #4 cylinder and cranked again and compression began when the rotor was in the #3 position, move the compression tester to the #2 cylinder and compression built when the rotor hit the #4 position
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MikeD0L
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athawk11
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Posted: 17 Oct. 2019 at 3:24am |
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You can't get a 1,4,2,3 firing order in an L134 engine. There must be something wrong with the way you're testing...or there is a serious flaw with your cam shaft. One other possibility is the fiber timing gear has broken, but if this were true, I don't think you would be getting consistent compression readings.
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1- 1946 CJ2A
2- 1949 CJ3A |
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Bruce W
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Posted: 17 Oct. 2019 at 3:30am |
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I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with this "one stroke" compression test, I've never seen or heard of anyone doing it this way.
Even if the camshaft had "jumped time" due to a worn chain or gears and things were not happening when they should, they would still happen in the correct order. And if it slipped time by very far, there would be very little or no compression at all. I don't know what it is that you're doing, or why, but what you describe is not possible. BW
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It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
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MikeD0L
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Posted: 17 Oct. 2019 at 4:52am |
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that's not the firing order, that's the order of the compression stroke for each cylinder. let me put it this way, the firing order is 1,3,4,2 shouldn't the compression stroke for each cylinder match so when the rotor is going into the #3 spot the # 3 cylinder be going into its compression stroke, when the rotor goes into the #4 position the #4 cylinder is going into its compression stroke and the the same for #2? That's what isn't happening, when the rotor goes into the # 3 spot the #3 cylinder isn't in its compression stroke, same for 4 & 2. all i did was put the compression tester on each cylinder and watch where the rotor was on the compression stroke for each cylinder, I kept telling myself this cant be but, checked it 3 times and the same every time.
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MikeD0L
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smfulle wrote: