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Knuckle stud upgrade

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jeeper50 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2020 at 1:00pm
This mod strengthens the mounting point of the spindle, preventing the attaching hardware from pulling the threads out of the knuckle which is what happened to grandpas jeep. 
'53 Cj3B 4 cyl D25/D44 lockrights,11" brakes, Belleview ol skool winch.


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Fltfndr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fltfndr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2020 at 1:13pm
I understand  using the button heads and the modification to the edges of the cap.  I was referring to grinding  the ball end of the axle housing itself.
 
Fltfndr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2020 at 1:37pm
There are probably two benefits to grinding the bosses flat inside of the steering knuckle:
1.  The button head bolts are a little more out of the way from the spinning axle join.  
2.   Full contact with the flat surface of the button helps with the frustum strength of the bolt compressing the assembly.

Look at slides 8 and 9
Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep, 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheelie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2020 at 7:23pm
  I did the job on a Dana 27......Spicer axles. I ground the housing because I was not comfortable grinding too much off the button head cap screw. 

I mounted the knuckles (with the seal in place) on the axle and marked the location of the knuckle seals at full lock in each direction to assure that I would not grind to much of the ball away and create a breach of the sealing surface. 

I don't recall if I could grind the ball with the seal removed from the knuckle or if I took the knuckle off and on and off and on etc., etc as I checked for clearance. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unclemoak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb. 2020 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Fltfndr Fltfndr wrote:

Anybody know if these same mods to the knuckle are necessary with a spicer axle?
 
Fltfndr

The style of axle shaft doesn’t make a difference. This upgrade strengthens the joint between the knuckle and the spindle. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fltfndr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb. 2020 at 1:21pm
Do you have any specific measurements of how much material to remove from the ball end of the axle housing?  Also any description of where to remove. I have the button heads done and installed and too chicken to just start blindly grinding on the housing.
 
 
Fltfndr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb. 2020 at 2:52pm

I would expect that you would want to retain as much material as possible and still get a 90 degree flat surface for the back of the button head bolt to seat against the casting.  Somewhere up in this thread I posted a link showing how the compression forces work with a bolt.  The bolt head needs to be in solid contact for the Frustum to be most effective when the nut is tightened.  Shear should not be an issue since the spindle has a step that goes inside of the steering knuckle casting.

The factory set up is a "Tapped Joint"  the button head bolt is a "Bolt With Nut"

Grip Pressure Cone
Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep, 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fltfndr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb. 2020 at 4:41pm
Way above my pay grade. I am not dealing with the bolts, only the ball  end of the axle housing
Fltfndr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb. 2020 at 5:17pm
The best way to figure out where and how much to remove, involves installing knuckle after installing button head bolts into knuckle and installing knuckle without spindle to be able to see where the bolts contacts axle housing. Looking inside as the knuckle is rotated side to side to indicate if you need to remove a bit more to clear the head. In the axle pic you can see the small area on front and rear of the outer edge that he ground on for clearance. 

Without using a formula to show it


Edited by jeeper50 - 13 Feb. 2020 at 5:22pm
'53 Cj3B 4 cyl D25/D44 lockrights,11" brakes, Belleview ol skool winch.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb. 2020 at 7:28pm
Just remove the minimum amount of casting to get a flat face for the bolt head to seat upon.
Then assemble knuckle to hemisphere to make sure knuckles will swing a full 29* without interference.

29* is required for Rzeppa shafts at maximum steer angle.
27-1/2* for Spicer shafts at maximum steer angle.
23* for Bendix shafts at maximum steer angle.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fltfndr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb. 2020 at 8:18pm
Can you remove some material from  the top of the buttonhead screw in addition to the edge of the screw?
Fltfndr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb. 2020 at 8:44am
Is everyone talking about the same thing here?  To me it doesn't seem so.

These two posters sound like they are addressing the rotating part of the axle contacting the heads of the bolts"

Originally posted by Fltfndr Fltfndr wrote:

Do you have any specific measurements of how much material to remove from the ball end of the axle housing?  Also any description of where to remove. I have the button heads done and installed and too chicken to just start blindly grinding on the housing.

Originally posted by jeeper50 jeeper50 wrote:

The best way to figure out where and how much to remove, involves installing knuckle after installing button head bolts into knuckle and installing knuckle without spindle to be able to see where the bolts contacts axle housing....

But these two seem to be talking about making room to install the bolts in the first place:

Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:

I would expect that you would want to retain as much material as possible and still get a 90 degree flat surface for the back of the button head bolt to seat against the casting....

Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

Just remove the minimum amount of casting to get a flat face for the bolt head to seat upon....

If I'm misunderstanding someone I apologize.  But if others are misunderstanding each other maybe this will help.


(oldtime might be getting back to Fltfndr's issue when he goes on to say:)

Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

....  Then assemble knuckle to hemisphere to make sure knuckles will swing a full 29* without interference.

29* is required for Rzeppa shafts at maximum steer angle.
27-1/2* for Spicer shafts at maximum steer angle.
23* for Bendix shafts at maximum steer angle.
Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb. 2020 at 10:59am
Quote  Can you remove some material from  the top of the buttonhead screw in addition to the edge of the screw?
I believe that a small amount of grinding on the bolt heads is better than milling too deep into the casting.

On my conversion I milled the minimum amount of material to get a flat surface. 
I use a drill press with a 1/2" end mill. 
I just manually slid the casting about by hand on top the drill press table. Cast iron machine very easily !
I did not need to grind any off the the button heads and can easily turn the knuckles 30* either way after assembly was complete. 
Note: one of  mine is a "double knuckle" and so that's why the machining looks so different between them.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb. 2020 at 12:02pm
Sorry if we got off track.  In the old days when doing this conversion (to decrease the chances of the tapped holes in the casting failing)  it was done with regular bolts and the process involved grind mainly the bolts at 3 and 9 o'clock - if I remember the process correctly.  Button head bolts don't have high edges and corners so grinding should be minimal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheelie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb. 2020 at 6:14pm
I ground a little off the button head cap screws and also a little off the ball ends of the axle housing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drm101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb. 2020 at 10:17am
Nice video Unclemoak! 
Dean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masscj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb. 2020 at 7:27pm
Great video, thanks for doing that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TXtea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2020 at 8:01am
So I was looking over this mod and I really like it.  Thanks for the video Unclemoak.  But I was wondering if anyone has done this with the Tracker disc conversion?  I've got a 1/2" thick disc mount that also bolts to the spindle, so I will need longer bolts, but wanted to make sure the excess bolt length will not interfere with the hub.  I have very little clearance right now, so I'm sure it will be closer after this mod.
Ryan
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