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smfulle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2015 at 5:32pm
I just found a company website that seems to offer washers in whatever size you can think of and of whatever material you can think of.

What material should a thrust washer be made of?

http://www.bokers.com
Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2015 at 5:43pm
I've had both front lockers and front AWD posi-traction. On my Landcruiser and Ford respectively.  I like the front locker IF it is a manually engaged unit. It definitely changes the steering. I never liked the way the Ford would drive in AWD on a slick road - very unpredictable. On the Landcruiser I could engage the front lockers only when needed, and it is awesome for nasty trails.

On my Willys I installed a LockRight in the D41. I have NO plans to install one in the front- I just don't like the idea of wrestling the steering full time. Just my experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2015 at 5:55pm
You might try a different carrier, yours just might be on the outer end of spec for width. 

I run the Yukon 'Spartan' version in my Dana 30 front. It works very well for me. I have been all over the country with it. 

One difference that I will point out. I feel that automatic front lockers work best when you have an open, limited slip, or selectable rear locker. This completely changes how the front locker acts along with the chassis dynamics in general. 


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stude-a-willys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2015 at 8:57pm
I have a lock-right in the back of my 47.
 
I don't think you are ever going to get that pull/ratchet/loopy feeling out of a front lock-right.
 
I have no plans to put an automatic locker in the front axle.
I have driven my 4runner with automatic lockers front/rear and it was just no fun in some situations.
No fun situations included: packed snow, ice, (won't turn) side-hill (front and rear crabwalks down the hill) , and heavily loaded pointing downhill (can't steer).
 
I have run open/open, automatic locker/open, automatic locker/Limited slip. automatic locker/selectable locker and finally wound up selectable/selectable lockers front/rear all in the same toyota over the years. 
 
I know there is no such thing as a Dana 25 ARB, but you would think that there must be a bearing/race/ring gear spacer combo that would let you mount something like a Toyota 7.5" ARB into a Dana 25 housing.
 
Happy Motoring!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2015 at 1:06am
Originally posted by stude-a-willys stude-a-willys wrote:

I have a lock-right in the back of my 47.
 
I don't think you are ever going to get that pull/ratchet/loopy feeling out of a front lock-right.
 
I have no plans to put an automatic locker in the front axle.
I have driven my 4runner with automatic lockers front/rear and it was just no fun in some situations.
No fun situations included: packed snow, ice, (won't turn) side-hill (front and rear crabwalks down the hill) , and heavily loaded pointing downhill (can't steer).
 
I have run open/open, automatic locker/open, automatic locker/Limited slip. automatic locker/selectable locker and finally wound up selectable/selectable lockers front/rear all in the same toyota over the years. 
 

Can you break down which end had what locker?

I'm running a front automatic locker ( spartan locker ) with a rear selectable locker ( ox air locker ). I don't have any of the problems you mentioned. Keeping the rear open till I need it REALLY helps the chassis dynamics. I ran a rear power-lok before I swapped to the ox-locker. In a LOT of situations I miss the limited slip in the rear axle. Ultimately the selectable locker would go further, but the power-lok did most of the mild/medium stuff better....

anyways, just curious....


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2015 at 4:02am
Well, before I give up on this, I'm going to take Metcalf's advice and try a new carrier. The only new one I could find for the Dana 25 is from Omix, so I'm taking a chance on one. Should br here by the weekend. If I cant get the measurements into tolerances with the new carrier then I'm going back to the stock set up in the front. After all, I got up just about anything I tried with only the rear locked up.
Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2015 at 4:05am
Am I dreaming or was there a variety of side shims offered?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2015 at 4:32am
Originally posted by Joe Friday Joe Friday wrote:

Am I dreaming or was there a variety of side shims offered?


I think the variety of shims are for behind the carrier bearings and are used to adjust the ring and pinion setup. I could only find one variety/thickness of side gear thrust washers. I thought about trying to get some custom made ones but decided to try the carrier first. 66 years had to have put some wear on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stude-a-willys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2015 at 2:35pm
Sorry about that, Metcalf. 

Details:
In Colorado, over the years in a daily driver 4runner with on tires from 31-37" IFS to solid front axle swap, I have built and run:

Rear          Front
open         open
lock-right   open
lock-right  Detroit Tru-track (LSD)
lock-right   Detroit EZ locker
lock-right   ARB 
ARB           ARB

The only "no compromise" setup was the pair of ARB selectable lockers. Perfect street, perfect trail (unless I forgot to turn on the locker(s)) because I forgot that I didn't have an automatic rear locker anymore; did that for about a year.

a pair of automatic lockers on packed snow/ ice roads was "sketch" in 4x4 Like 30 MPH and under felt safe. On steep sidehill where you don't really need a locker, but the automatics stay engaged, the "crab-walk" was pretty notable. (All the weight on the low side would compress the tires, making the effective diameter "smaller" than the unloaded, high side....ever roll an ice cream cone on a desk?)...This would try to shove you down, off of the hill. As you know on those Colorado shelf roads, sometimes closer to the edge isn't where you want to be and sometimes there just isn't much room to steer up the hill to compensate. Places like Blanca come to mind. Open diffs don't crab-walk like that.
Steering with high loads on the front automatic locker was impossible at times. (like coming to the bottom of a steep step and needing to turn right away. The waterfalls on Independence Trail in Penrose come to mind.

I never tried automatic locker in the front and open/selectable in the back. I remember trying to spot an early Bronco in a tough spot with this setup and the tires didn't go where I expected. As the driver you would get used to it. 

I would like to try the spartan sometime. The bigger pins look like they would operate better than the pins in a lock-right or EZ-locker.

For me and what I do with my Willys, I think a rear locker and a powr-lok in the front would be perfect. stock is good, but I sure get stuck in deep snow fast. No wonder someone had welded the rear spider gears at some point in the past. It took many campfire arguments and beers to come to the conclusion that 33s with a rear locker was the "most fun" setup for Colorado trails.







Edited by stude-a-willys - 18 Mar. 2015 at 2:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2015 at 4:16am
Originally posted by stude-a-willys stude-a-willys wrote:

Sorry about that, Metcalf. 

Details:
In Colorado, over the years in a daily driver 4runner with on tires from 31-37" IFS to solid front axle swap, I have built and run:

Rear          Front
open         open
lock-right   open
lock-right  Detroit Tru-track (LSD)
lock-right   Detroit EZ locker
lock-right   ARB 
ARB           ARB

The only "no compromise" setup was the pair of ARB selectable lockers. Perfect street, perfect trail (unless I forgot to turn on the locker(s)) because I forgot that I didn't have an automatic rear locker anymore; did that for about a year.

a pair of automatic lockers on packed snow/ ice roads was "sketch" in 4x4 Like 30 MPH and under felt safe. On steep sidehill where you don't really need a locker, but the automatics stay engaged, the "crab-walk" was pretty notable. (All the weight on the low side would compress the tires, making the effective diameter "smaller" than the unloaded, high side....ever roll an ice cream cone on a desk?)...This would try to shove you down, off of the hill. As you know on those Colorado shelf roads, sometimes closer to the edge isn't where you want to be and sometimes there just isn't much room to steer up the hill to compensate. Places like Blanca come to mind. Open diffs don't crab-walk like that.
Steering with high loads on the front automatic locker was impossible at times. (like coming to the bottom of a steep step and needing to turn right away. The waterfalls on Independence Trail in Penrose come to mind.

I never tried automatic locker in the front and open/selectable in the back. I remember trying to spot an early Bronco in a tough spot with this setup and the tires didn't go where I expected. As the driver you would get used to it. 

I would like to try the spartan sometime. The bigger pins look like they would operate better than the pins in a lock-right or EZ-locker.

For me and what I do with my Willys, I think a rear locker and a powr-lok in the front would be perfect. stock is good, but I sure get stuck in deep snow fast. No wonder someone had welded the rear spider gears at some point in the past. It took many campfire arguments and beers to come to the conclusion that 33s with a rear locker was the "most fun" setup for Colorado trails.



If you ever want to experiment, I would give the automatic front and selectable rear a try. I think being able to take the majority of the bind out the system by leaving the REAR locker open makes for a completely different chassis. My gut feeling is that the REAR locker is causing most of the issues the chassis binding up and not going where you point it. Running some rough numbers the REAR tires actually see a much greater speed differential ( side to side ) when turning than the front tires do. 

Personally I would love to see more limited slip rear diffs that could be locked. There are few in the OEM market...and a few aftermarket.  I think about 95% of the time a limited slip would be find in the rear axle. I'd like to experiment more with how a gear-drive limited slip acts compared to a good clutch type limited slip. Personally I like a rear mild limited slip for snow/ice rather than having to run open/open in 4wd a lot of the time. 

For the front axle. I would really like to see someone come up with an open/automatic selectable locker. For off-road use I think an automatic locker can just do it's automatic thing as long as the rear axle isn't trying to push/load the chassis too hard. In a lot of situations I like that the automatic locker can do its automatic thing when turning.....it just locks/unlocks as needed as the traction surface changes. With a selectable locker in front I always find that if its locked the steering is just about ALWAYS bound up creating issues. Some of this can be dialed out by leaving the rear open, and the other part can be dealt with using higher power assist steering. 

I haven't found the perfect setup yet, but for what I do I find the automatic front and selectable rear locker works well ( while I continue to want that limited slip in the rear instead of the open option in the selectable ). 


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2015 at 3:35am
Well, I think for me, this experiment is over. I receive my OMX diff carrier from Summit Racing. When I pulled it out of the box, i noticed right away that it looked quite a bit different. I set them on the bench together and you can see, the new one on the left, has a ring gear flange that is in a way different spot . I don't think I could get the ring gear to line up with three sets of shims. I''m just going to put the spiders back in and be happy with what I have.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2015 at 3:52am
I bit my tongue when you mentioned the OMIX name.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote windyhill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2015 at 12:26pm
Man what a pain!  Well you gave it the old collage try anyway.   Love watching your videos it's great to see someone out really using a old flatty in stock form!   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar. 2015 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by kansascat kansascat wrote:

Not to hijack this thread but since its on the same subject somewhat...whats everyones opinion on if just installing one unit in your jeep, which end would you do...or at least do first? In my mind there are pluses to both. Rear end would give added traction while in 2wd which might save having to stop and lock in hubs once in a while. It also would benefit going up steep grades as weight transfers to rear then, but front end is usually engaged when going into something serious which is when added traction would always be wanted, and front end would help it pop up onto rocks ridges and out of holes if both wheels are pulling, and most the weight is on front when on the level so would benefit in mud and snow most id think. Whats your observations those of ya who have one unit only?


Tough call....

If it had to be an automatic locker, I would probably say FRONT. I really liked having an automatic locker in front with a rear power-lok. That combo was GREAT for 99% of anything most people would want to do in a flat fender. If I didn't HAVE to have a 'real locker' for the Ultimate Adventure trip I would have probably just rebuilt the power-lok with a new clutch pack and run it. I noticed VERY few situations where the lack of a 'real' rear locker held me up.

Now I have an automatic FRONT locker and a selectable REAR locker. I wouldn't want it the other way around personally. I think the chassis handles much better without the rear locked most of the time. I think this eliminates a lot of short wheelbase specific issues.

I do notice that I have to use my rear locker MORE than I would like compared to when I had the limited slip in the rear axle. With the limited slip I didn't really have to think about it, it just did it's thing 99% of the time.

The only time I didn't really like my rear limited slip was in deep spring snow wheeling when I was trying to do odd things like climb back up on the snow from the dirt on a sidehill or something. The rear just wasn't consistent enough with very high differences in traction from side to side. I think a new 'aggressive' clutch pack would have helped that a lot.

There is always a downside to every combination. It is all a compromise. Your mileage may vary :)
 
42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar. 2016 at 9:48pm

Well. I thought I better finish this up with "the rest of the story."
I have  had this Lock Right sitting on my shelf now for a year as I pondered what to do about it.
Just as a refresher, there were two problems. 1st, the pins that hold the two  halves together  would not fit correctly in to the machined holes as designed. The holes were too tight. I had ground the pins a little on my bench grinder to get them to fit, but I didn't like that they were now odd shaped and a little loose.
 
2nd, when I had the whole thing assembled in the carrier, the gap between the halves of the locker was to large, even with new side gear thrust washers installed. This cause the automatic locking action to be erratic and the steering would pull to once side or the other at unpredictable intervals.
 
I finally decided to do something about this, when I committed to go to the Flat Fender Fun Run during Easter Jeep Safari.
 
1st thing I did was order a new set of pins and springs. New pins still did not fit in the machined holes.
 
2nd thing I did was call Summit Racing and ask them to replace the whole set for me since the one I had would not fit together. Summit is great and sent me another locker, unfortunately the pins did not fit in this one any better than the first one so I sent it back and decided to make the original work.
 
3d thing that I did was go to Home Depot and buy a grinding bit for my dermal tool that is designed to sharpen chain saws. It is small enough to fit into the hole for the pin and long enough to reach down to the bottom.  With this bit, I opened up the holes just enough so the pins would fit in as designed. 1st problem solved.
 
4th thing I did was go to Six States Distributors and ask about side gear shims for the Dana 25. They didn't know anything about that, but I had the pieces I needed shims for so their mechanic walked me out to their shop and pulled some shims off of a  peg board that almost fit over the side gear. He gave me a stack of several different sizes that I thought I could make work. At home I measure out the shims and found to .010 shims. I them put a little grinding bit in my drill, clamped my drill in the vise and opened shims up just a little so they would slip over the side gears.
 
Once all that was done, I put it all together, measure the gap which was within a few thousands of the optimum as stated in the manual. 2nd Problem solved.
 
 Installed using the steps I outlined above. Buttoned it up. Filled with gear oil. Loaded the jeep on the trailer and went to Moab.
 
Here's the result.



Edited by smfulle - 31 Mar. 2016 at 4:47am
Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2016 at 1:03am
I'm convinced that the result was worth the grief. Still, I hate an automatic locker on the front axle.

I have a Lock Right on the Dana 41 in the rear of my Willys.
'47 CJ2A -- #114542
Warn FF D41 rear
Lock-Right locker
11" drum brakes
Dual master cylinder
T90C Transmission
16 X 6 Jeep truck wheels
Cooper STT Pro tires
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2016 at 1:45am
Great job Stan. The perfect addition to the semi-stocker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2016 at 3:53am
I had lockrights in my 49cj3A, and Stans are much quieter...
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