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Locked out of 1st and reverse

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Jpaulding View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 July 2019 at 2:52am
Hello all,

After all the love and time I have put into this jeep, it still holds true to it's it's name (Just Empty Every Pocket) and breaks on me. Today when I was pulling it out of the garage it was having trouble getting into reverse gear, foot to the floor on clutch and waiting a second I would have to wiggle and force the lever into reverse. The transmission was clearly protesting. Even putting it into 1st was a challenge, grinding all around. 2nd and 3rd gave me no trouble though. 

I assume my clutch is not releasing completely, and on top of that the throw out bearing is making noises upon engagement. 

What exactly do you guys think the issue is, and what would be the best route of repairing it? If my assumptions of clutch issues are correct I plan on re grinding the flywheel, new clutch and new TOB. But most importantly I'm curious about what the easiest way to do this is. Do you guys recommend that I pull the motor and service the clutch that way? If so what will my challenges be, where are my lifting points? If that's not the route I should take what do you guys suggest?

Picture attached to please the jeep gods for good advice. (That's my girlSmile)


Edited by Jpaulding - 16 July 2019 at 2:54am
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Ol' Unreliable View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2019 at 4:17am
You just need to adjust your clutch cable.  Tighten it up until you don't grind going into 1st.  If you do need to replace (or regrease) your throwout bearing, that would require separating your engine/bellhousing.
There's a reason it's called Ol' Unreliable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2019 at 5:14am
Definitely try adjusting the clutch first.
If you decide the clutch and bearing need attention, here’s a thread where I show the way I remove the bell housing, transmission and transfer case as a unit. I have found that to be the easiest method for me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cal.bar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2019 at 4:34pm
I agree with the above. Start with clutch cable, but it's probably not it. Take some video of the clutch and flywheel in action through the service door above the transmission tower. Let's see what it is doing when you are stepping on the clutch. Dragging clutch could be a bunch of stuff, but generally means going in and replacing the clutch. I have done it twice now and always by taking out the transmission and t/c. rather than going from the front and removing the engine.

Also, when shifting into reverse or first, you have no synchos, so it takes TIME for the gears to stop spinning. Mine takes a FULL 3 seconds before it will smoothly go into reverse of first. Try slowing down your shift into R and 1


Edited by cal.bar - 16 July 2019 at 4:38pm
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Jpaulding View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jpaulding Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2019 at 4:44pm
Thank you for your reply, I am doubtful that it has something to do with adjustment because last week the clutch was releasing when the pedal was pressed an inch or so down and now it wont release when foot to the floor. I will see what I can do about taking a video when I get home. I still will be trying the adjustment cable first though because it will be much easier than pulling the willys apart.

I say I want to pull the engine because I dont have a lift at home and I dont like working under jack stands. However if it turns out to be much easier that way, thats the way I'll do it. I just dont want to be covered in the oil thats about an inch thick built up on all the drive train components.

It occurs to me that I am running really old tranny fluid, I doubt that would be the cause of the issue, but if anyone thinks otherwise let me know. tranny fluid could be low or very old so maybe thats causing the issue? I'm doubtful it is though.

How hard is it to pull the tranny, t case, pto in comparison to pulling the engine?


Edited by Jpaulding - 16 July 2019 at 4:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2019 at 6:33pm
Pull the bell housing inspection cover to look and see what the throw out bearing is doing.  If it is not completely disengaging the pressure plate when you push the clutch pedal, then you have a problem somewhere in the linkage.  It may not be the cable adjustment.  It could be a loose, worn or bent cross-over tube.

Edit...One other issue I've had: The fork that pushes against the Throw Out Bearing can split on the pivot fulcrum.  This would have the same effect as a cable that needs adjustment.  I have a photo somewhere.  I'll look for it. 

Here is the photo.  This doesn't show it very well, but this pivot point essentially exploded.  This gave the same affect as if the cable was now too long and needed to be adjusted.

 


Edited by athawk11 - 16 July 2019 at 7:02pm
1- 1946 CJ2A   
2- 1949 CJ3A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cal.bar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2019 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Jpaulding Jpaulding wrote:

Thank you for your reply, I am doubtful that it has something to do with adjustment because last week the clutch was releasing when the pedal was pressed an inch or so down and now it wont release when foot to the floor. I will see what I can do about taking a video when I get home. I still will be trying the adjustment cable first though because it will be much easier than pulling the willys apart.

I say I want to pull the engine because I dont have a lift at home and I dont like working under jack stands. However if it turns out to be much easier that way, thats the way I'll do it. I just dont want to be covered in the oil thats about an inch thick built up on all the drive train components.

It occurs to me that I am running really old tranny fluid, I doubt that would be the cause of the issue, but if anyone thinks otherwise let me know. tranny fluid could be low or very old so maybe thats causing the issue? I'm doubtful it is though.

How hard is it to pull the tranny, t case, pto in comparison to pulling the engine?



RE: Pulling engine vs. tranny etc. It's a matter of weight. Once you jack up the jeep and put it on jack stands (rather inexpensive) then you can pull the transfer case and transmission (about75 pounds). Then pull the bellhousing (15-20 pounds) and you have complete access to the clutch etc. Whereas, if you pull the engine it's what about 750 pounds? Not to mention, there are A LOT of connections with the engine and things that can go wrong.

Now, don't get me wrong, pulling the transmission and getting it back in place and getting the fiddly clutch fork in place correctly etc. is a real pain in the ass and WILL cause you to swear like a sailor. BUT, you are only moving small parts that have very simple connections. Let me know how waiting a full 3 seconds before shifting works. It made all the difference in my case.


Edited by cal.bar - 16 July 2019 at 8:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2019 at 7:26pm
"throw out bearing is making noises upon engagement"

This is a clue. Do as others have suggested and look to see what the throw out bearing is doing through the inspection plate. 

The throw out bearings can freeze up, come apart, and sometimes even wear through the pressure plate levers, but that makes a whole lot of noise.

I always remove the transmission and transfer case to replace a clutch. I never pull the engine unless I need to for some reason. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jpaulding Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2019 at 12:25am
I opened the access port to view the clutch working. Today it wasnt giving me issues going into gear. I think the jeep just needed to be parked overnight so it could heal... it took about 2 to 3 seconds for the clutch itself to stop spinning when engaged, and after it stopped it took all gears easily. 

When engaging the clutch with the car off there is no noises. it goes in pretty smoothly. But when the car is running, and the clutch assy is spinning, and I depress the clutch it makes a grinding noise, not just a grinding noise but one with a knock to it. I would also like to mention that while the clutch is not depressed the throw out bearing is still engaged and spinning, which I'm pretty sure its not supposed to be touching the clutch fingers unless depressed. But it makes no noises when the TOB is spinning, so maybe it isnt the TOB? or maybe it is and only acts up under load.

I got a video but youtube is giving me trouble uploading it and it might not be uploaded tonight.


Edited by Jpaulding - 17 July 2019 at 12:30am
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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2019 at 1:28am
When the throw out bearing is spinning and the clutch isn't depressed there is a problem with the adjustment. You need to adjust the clutch cable to give it a little slack, just enough that when the engine is running in neutral that the throw out bearing isn't contacting the forks on the clutch pressure plate.

Keep in mind that the 1st and reverse gears are straight cut gears and they can butt teeth when the shift lever is moved into either gear from neutral when the engine is shut off. This is a random thing and it won't do it every time and if it does it from time to time it doesn't mean there is anything wrong.

On the other hand, with the engine running, it should go into 1st and reverse gear smoothly almost all the time provided the clutch in depressed down. If it grinds going into 1st or reverse all the time then there is an adjustment problem.

46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2019 at 1:44am
Have you recently replaced the pilot bushing?  (Recently meaning "low miles" since the replacement.)
1- 1946 CJ2A   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jpaulding Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2019 at 2:26am
Originally posted by athawk11 athawk11 wrote:

Have you recently replaced the pilot bushing?  (Recently meaning "low miles" since the replacement.)

No. I bought this lovely junk earlier this year, barely had her apart. What makes you suggest pilot bushing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jpaulding Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2019 at 2:46am
Here is the video of my noisy clutch. The sounds get worse and louder as the engine gets faster.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Joe DeYoung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2019 at 3:27am
My preference is to pull the engine to work on cluch issues... and I have a lift so that I'm not laying on my back.

I see that your input shaft stops when the clutch is disengaged so I'm a bit puzzled as to why it would grind going into 1st/rev. Nothing is moving in the trans to grind.  I assume the jeep is not in motion when you are shifting into 1st/rev. It sounds like your TO bearing is junk so you'll need to take the assembly apart. Perhaps your problem will be evident once you do that. 
Joe DeYoung
to many jeeps, parts, and accessories to list here, but apparently enough to keep me in trouble with my wife.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cal.bar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2019 at 5:57am
Good video, it show a lot. So.... yes, the TO bearing should not be spinning when not engaging the clutch fingers. That can be cured by loosening the clutch cable. See where that gets you. Next, yes, the TO bearing is making noises when it rotates. Yes, it could be a bad TO bearing, and but for the noise, still seems to be doing it's job. As noted above, the input shaft does stop spinning (in about 3 seconds or so like mine). So, if you shift slowly and wait 3 seconds after pushing in the clutch for 1 and R you might get by with just a noisy TO bearing. Sure, that sucks, and it may need to be replaced eventually, but.... might not be enough to justify tearing out the Trans and TC and bellhousing to get in there (for now).

ON THE OTHER HAND, the TO bearing might be adjusted so far in because the clutch drags otherwise and you can't push the clutch in enough to get the clutch to stop spinning. THAT could be that way because the clutch is well worn and really needs to be replaced. THAT would require the entire disassembly we talked about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2019 at 8:04am
cal.bar said: " it may need to be replaced eventually, but.... might not be enough to justify tearing out the Trans and TC and bellhousing to get in there (for now)."

It will definitely be enough to justify "tearing it out" if the bearing seizes and destroys the clutch release fingers, the bearing carrier, the fork, the transmission front bearing retainer, or all of the above.  Ouch  

And I'm with Joe - I have a lift and a good transmission jack, and I would rather pull the engine.

I see in the video that the return spring is pulling the carrier back until the spring coils are "stacked" - it can't pull any further. When the clutch disc wears (gets thinner) the pressure plate fingers get farther away from the flywheel, and the free-play goes away. If you loosen the cable you may add pedal free-play, but you won't get the bearing away from the fingers. I think it's clutch time.    BW


Edited by Bruce W - 17 July 2019 at 8:14am
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2019 at 1:44pm
I have experienced a clutch explosion in my youth, and it is not a pretty thing.

When a throw out bearing starts to make grinding noises it may not be long before it starts to come apart, or wear through the pressure plate levers. Putting off the maintenance could cost a lot more than installing a new clutch kit. 

Replacing a clutch is not a major job, and just about any competent mechanic can do it if you do not feel comfortable with doing it yourself. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jpaulding Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2019 at 4:06pm
Thank you all for the replies.
 A few years back I experienced a TOB explosion. It made the least pretty sound and feeling I've ever experienced in my life. I'm the type of guy to replace everything if I'm in there. After getting the tranny tunnel open it has made my resolve drop to the floor, what everyone said about removing tranny, or engine components being hard is entirely true now that I've seen it with my own eyes. I expect this to be much harder than replacing the clutch on my 300zx.
 
My friend has an engine stand that he said I could borrow. I feel like I would be more comfortable pulling the engine than working under a oily transmission. It might prove to be easier pulling the engine as I only have a jack and jackstands and don't want to be crawling around under the tranny, standing up and down, ect. If you guys say without a shadow of a doubt its easier to pull the tranny (I also have a PTO installed on the TC) I will go that route, but if its a toss up I'll likely pull the engine. I am worried about all the small clips and pins people say they have a hard time with putting back in the levers and other things.
 
While I'm in there, what kind of other things would you guys suggest I replace to be preventative? Keep in mind I'm 21 years old and money is tight but can be allocated if needed.
 
BTW earlier I stated that it is not giving me issues going into gear anymore! That adds to the confusion, but now that I know the TOB is fried I will still be going in there to check it out anyways.


Edited by Jpaulding - 17 July 2019 at 4:10pm
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