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Ryan_289 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan_289 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Locker questions
    Posted: 20 Nov. 2021 at 4:06pm
I'm trying to decide what to do for lockers in my trail jeep project.  My current drivetrain is a 225 dauntless/T18/D18 with 3.73 dana 44 rear and 3.73 dana 27 front.  Since I'm not sure yet if I'm going to stay with the 3.73 gears, I don't want to spend the cash yet on selectable lockers.  If I went with a lunchbox style locker, would you put it in the front or the rear?  I have saginaw manual steering if that is a determining factor.  I do plan to drive it on the road some but it wouldn't be a lot of miles.

Edited by Ryan_289 - 20 Nov. 2021 at 4:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Y2GREY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov. 2021 at 8:12am
I run Spartans front and rear. I have the same setup with the exception of a D30 up front and 4.86 low in the Tcase. I started with 3.73s and dropped to 4.27. I run 35s so no overdrive. The Spartans do have a very positive engagement. (they are loud)
43 MB-5, 225, t18, RE486 4.27 and 131:1 compound low
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov. 2021 at 9:31am
If driving on snowy highways in 4WD is a likelihood I'd never suggest an automatic locker in the front.  Much too dangerous handling in my experience.

But this is a flattie in Arkansas, so that's probably not a likelihood so...

My personal experience has always been with a rear automatic and a front either open or selectable.  I've liked that and wouldn't hesitate to go that way again.  But...

Metcalf has made good arguments about an automatic locker in the front being the best starting point.  If I was building another trail rig (and snowy freeways weren't going to be a factor) I think I'd try an automatic locker in the front as the first step.  I don't know that I'd like it as much overall as an automatic in the rear (my little experience with an auto locker in the front showed it to be effective but more annoying than the locker in the back).  But I would like to try it more given other's input.

I don't know if that helps or not, but it's what I've got.
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oldtime View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov. 2021 at 10:13am
I suggest you run it “as is “ (open) for a while; just to determine if you are satisfied with the gear arrangement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov. 2021 at 10:33am
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

I suggest you run it “as is “ (open) for a while; just to determine if you are satisfied with the gear arrangement.


X2

I would also suggest that you not put lockers front and rear if there is a chance of running on snow or especially ice. The rig will have a pronounced tendency to go sideways on the road with ice or snow. If your rig is to be used offroad only then lockers front and rear would be helpful. The steering could be a little sluggish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov. 2021 at 11:26am
please go here if you have not already done so:

additionally as Metcalf wrote:

here some older posts: 
https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/rear-end-gearing_topic29657_page1.html

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/dana-25-locker_topic41199.html

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/locker-10-and-19-spline-dana-44_topic48753_post495070.html?KW=front+locker#495070


there is a ton of info/debate on this forum that is very worthwhile reading. i say this because there is a wealth of experience with differing opinions and if you diligently consider what has been input, it will greatly assist you in your decision making. and i learned a ton about lockers (knowing almost nothing) and it led me to some great learning resources.

for those needing help with the basics:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYAw79386WI

from my perspective (rank amateur) i left mine open/open as some suggest and just keep running it. so far, so good. but i certainly keep considering something. Metcalf and Nothing Special's respectful debate (see above topic link) was very helpful for me. still seeking input so thanks for posting your question.


Edited by bight - 26 Nov. 2021 at 11:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AKoller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov. 2021 at 11:58am
If you would like to run a selectable locker in the rear I would go ahead and do it now. If you decide to go with deeper gears at some point you can buy a “thick gear” and not be out anything on your locker. I would probably go with the cheap lunch box locker up front since you’ve talked about switching to a D30. That way your not out as much $$.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fltfndr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov. 2021 at 2:27am
Alan, I am running a very similiar driveline, 225 V-6, T-14, D-18 w Tera low. D44 with Lockrite  rear and D25 with Lockrite front.  No problems except sometimes difficult to turn in 4WD Low side when climbing.
Have not run in snow but imagine unlocking one hub or unlock both and run 2WD low side would solve problem

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote windyhill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov. 2021 at 9:57am
Front locker in the snow sucks you will turn you wheels and plow sideways,  Yes a locker in the rear will tend to make your rear kick out, but that's at least more predictable.  3:73's suck on the trail,  I had them in a 67 with a v6, it did do great burnouts but was geared way high. swapped to 4:27's and it was a bit better.  for a trailer rig, 5:38's are the best.  I'm running the same v6, T-18, combo with 5:38's and an overdrive.  I thinks it's the best combo there is.  With lower gears alone you'll do way better off road. Add a selectable in the rear and see how it goes. I would never run a non selectable up front again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov. 2021 at 10:31am
My favorite combo is still an automatic front locker and a selectable rear locker. I prefer it to all other combos, including selectable/selectable. I've driven this combo in all terrains and weather conditions over the last decade or so.

If you want another layer of capability and maneuverability, add a rear left/right/both cutting brake.

Having a transfer case that can front drive only also adds an amazing amount of a versatility.


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OnlyOneDR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov. 2021 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

My personal experience has always been with a rear automatic and a front either open or selectable.  I've liked that and wouldn't hesitate to go that way again.

I also like the rear automatic and front either open or selectable.  I have my Frontier set up with a Detroit rear and an ARB front.  My Blazer has a Lock-Right rear and an open front.  I want an LSD for the front of the Blazer.  My Willys will have a D27/D44 combo both with Powr-Lok LSDs.  My Ram tow rig will get Power Wagon differentials (I already have the front one which is a selectable open/locker, looking for the rear which is a Torsen LSD/locker).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Y2GREY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov. 2021 at 9:55am
Originally posted by OnlyOneDR OnlyOneDR wrote:

Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

My personal experience has always been with a rear automatic and a front either open or selectable.  I've liked that and wouldn't hesitate to go that way again.

I also like the rear automatic and front either open or selectable.  I have my Frontier set up with a Detroit rear and an ARB front.  My Blazer has a Lock-Right rear and an open front.  I want an LSD for the front of the Blazer.  My Willys will have a D27/D44 combo both with Powr-Lok LSDs.  My Ram tow rig will get Power Wagon differentials (I already have the front one which is a selectable open/locker, looking for the rear which is a Torsen LSD/locker).
The Power Wagon axles a great. I highly recommend running a Dynatrac hub kit after the first set of outer ujoints go at about 60k. I've had 3 and the all do the same no mater Dana or AAM.
43 MB-5, 225, t18, RE486 4.27 and 131:1 compound low
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov. 2021 at 10:30am
FWIW … The last six willys (3A’s + 3B’s) I built for myself or sold since 1983 have had POWR LOK’s  both front and rear. Zero problems and none have needed rebuilt since I installed them.

Technically these are not modified Jeeps they are built with standard stock and optional stock aka “Jeep Approved Special Equipment”.


Edited by oldtime - 25 Nov. 2021 at 10:35am
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OnlyOneDR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov. 2021 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by Y2GREY Y2GREY wrote:

The Power Wagon axles a great. I highly recommend running a Dynatrac hub kit after the first set of outer ujoints go at about 60k. I've had 3 and the all do the same no matter Dana or AAM.

Yeah a free spin kit would be great, I have a few other items ahead of it in line though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov. 2021 at 10:57pm
Lots of great advice above,   but thought I would share my "tale of 2 Jeeps" Smile

1) the middle 20+ years of Wilson's life was 225,  T-90, D-18, OD,  5.38 gears, 10-spine LockRite in rear.
Pros:
 - lots of gear selections
 - rear auto locker is a huge improvement compared to "open" on twisty trails.  
Cons:
 - crawl ratio not that good
 - even with OD,  I wished I could shift one more gear on the highway
 - rear auto locker would tear up my yard and trails when making turns  (my property is "hilly")

2) past 3 years of Wilson's life is 225, SM420, D300, no OD,  3.73 gears,  TrueTrac LS diff in rear,  selectable locker in front.
Pros:
 - decent crawl ratio (69:1)   Rubicon tested  Smile
 - Nice highway ratio 3.73 . . so smooth and quiet at 55-60 mph,  225 has no problems
 - no tread marks in yard or trails . .  (locker would leave marks in turns,  open would spin one tire)
 - front locker is nice improvement on twisty trails
Cons:
 - in extreme rock crawling,  the LS in rear is basically open if really twisty
 - big rpm difference between tranny shifts . .  in both high or low range.   (5 speed tranny or OD would be nice to split gears)

There are so many variables of how we use our 2A's.    For my use,   as a "work Jeep" 98% percent of time,  and occasional Q8 trail vehicle,  I plan to stay with the current setup.  It seems to be the right compromise for me.

Edit:  I  re-read OP's post . .  I forgot to mention,   Wilson also has manual Saginaw steering.  When front selectable locker is engaged,  there is a VERY noticeable resistance to steering effort. 




Edited by JeepFever - 26 Nov. 2021 at 10:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov. 2021 at 9:38am
thanks JeepFever. though i am not the OP, this info is a great help to me as the Jeep i am considering modifying does what Wilson does.

my '46 is stock (L134, D25/D41, T-90, D18) with acquired rust and bondo modifications. but i have tried to focus on reliable starting, running, braking, etc. i am running 7.0x16 tractor tires. primary use is driving around my property. i do have some interesting steep gullies, mud pits, stream crossings, opportunities for playing in the snow. i also have a nearby playground with some really challenging mixes of terrain and rock. i can get to this area driving up to 45 mph without stopping traffic. i also pull a trailer loaded with wood and pull a log splitter. i always do this alone. no highway driving or slickrock.

and i have a winch on front.

not to hijack here, but it seems like i should consider to keep well enough alone as some have stated, stay stock and rely on the winch to get me out of stuck. this may minimize tearing up the land to as pointed out by JeepFever.

Metcalf, would putting a lock rite up front in the D25 and leave rear open make sense from your experience?


Edited by bight - 26 Nov. 2021 at 11:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan_289 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov. 2021 at 12:19pm
Thanks for all of the input.  Of course what I really want to do is also the most expensive.  Dana 30 for the front. Either 4.88 or 5.38 gears with an overdrive unit would give me an effective 3.66 or 4.03 final ratio with overdrive engaged if my math is correct.  That would put my crawl ratio at 76:1 or 84:1. ARB in the rear and an automatic up front.  We don't get snow very often here so I don't think the auto in the front would be an issue.

I'm putting it all together with the open 3.73s right now and will drive it first to see how it handles.  The crawl ratio as is would be 58:1.  Compared to the 37:1 in my stock 48, it would be a vast improvement.

Previous experience tells me I will end up going the most expensive route.  It the meantime, I may put an auto locker in the Dana 27 front and be on the lookout for a narrow dana 30 and save my pennies for the other goodies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov. 2021 at 1:00pm
Right !  IMHO you just can’t get more versatile than a D225 / T18 / D18 / 25% O.D. / D30-D44 with 4.88 ratio.. 
Then add some low gears to the transfer case if you really wanna crawl a lot. 
3.66 final drive ratio will give an excellent hiway cruise since you don’t really wanna drive a flatty much above 65 mph due to handling.



Edited by oldtime - 26 Nov. 2021 at 1:02pm
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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