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smfulle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 3:10pm
Opinions about lockers are interesting. 
My experience driving has only been with Lock Right lockers in both stock axles. I love them. They just work. You don't have to think about them. "Just drive up it." 
Some of my good friends and people that I really respect their opinion and experience have told me that they think the Power Lock limited slip is a better option that the Lock Right. I believe they base this on drivability and easier-on-the-axle factors. 
My opinion, based totally on observation is different. I have watched many a Power Lock slip on climbs and fail to get the rig over the top. I have also seen many jeeps with Power Locks in the front have a really difficult time steering. So my opinion, again based totally on observation of others, no actually driving experience, is that Power Locks lock when you don't want them to and don't lock when you want them to. 
I do have some stiff steering in 4wd with my Lock Rights, especially going down hill while using the engine to brake. Much of this can be mitigated by removing the transfer case interlock pill to allow 2wd low. A quick push of the 4wd selector lever forward and stiff steering goes away. I don't advise this on really steep slopes as all your traction will be on the back wheels and it's sometimes more exciting than you really want if those back wheels start sliding. 
Your mileage may vary.
Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 3:51pm
Yes, the opinions of you and others with more experience are very interesting to me.

I have only driven with limited slip on the rear axles of several vehicles other than Jeeps, I have never driven with a limited slip in both pumpkins, and never driven with an actual locker, except with my F150 which has a selectable locker in the rear, but only rarely have I had to use it. In other words I have low mileage experience.

Like I said, I have a pair of surplus Marine axles with the limited slip unit in both axles. I plan on using these on a build I am starting, but I am very interested in what to expect especially with having one in the front.

My intended use of the Jeep will be back roads in the mountains, with some stream crossings, not planning on anything more serious with this Jeep, but may decide ramp up the other Jeep I have for trails and mild crawling. Nothing like I have seen Stan or Jpet do in the videos I watched, which is stuff above my pay grade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 4:06pm
Oldpappy,

As long as you are not going to do the Stan and JPet technical rock climbing, you will find the limited slip in the front and rear to be very nice enhancement to these old Jeeps.  The problem I have found with the limited slip is that as soon a you roll back even a few inches (when climbing rocks especially) is enough to disengage the limited slip.  Then you need to spin them back up to get them to engage - so keeping your foot in it is very important to climbing difficult stuff.  On normal trails in the Mid-West the limited slip is great, climbs better than open differentials, it is easy to steer, you don't break axles and makes no clacking noise cornering.

I have read about limited slip issues with hard steering but I have never had a problem ( my girls even drive my trail Jeep with no issues).  When setting up the clutch packs the front needs to have 3 friction surfaces and the rear has 5 friction surfaces - Also you must add the limited slip friction modifier to the gear lube in those axles.  You should be all good then.

Be Safe out there - lockers may be safer than limited slip for rock climbing, do to the need to keep you foot in it to keep them locked.  


Stev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 6:05pm
Stev,

Thanks for that information.

I will plan on using the limited slip units front and back on my current "MB Clone" build. Thanks for the tip on setting up the clutch packs, I will check that.

If, for some reason I don't like it on both ends I do have another front axle with the stock open differential, but I think the LS will suit my purpose. 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:

....  you will find the limited slip in the front and rear to be very nice enhancement to these old Jeeps.  The problem I have found with the limited slip is that as soon a you roll back even a few inches (when climbing rocks especially) is enough to disengage the limited slip.  Then you need to spin them back up to get them to engage ....

Be Safe out there - lockers may be safer than limited slip for rock climbing, do to the need to keep you foot in it to keep them locked. 

Maybe I'm overly sensitive to this, and I really don't mean to be a jerk, or the grammar police or anything.  But I feel like a lot of the words people use about limited slips are misleading.  Limited slips do not engage, disengage or lock.  What at least some do (including the Powr Lok, I don't know what others) is they will tighten up under torque and will loosen when you let off the torque.

So Stev isn't wrong in his observations, or his recommendations.  But his words might be misleading.  The way I'd say it is that with a Powr Lok if you let off the torque they will loosen up so you are more likely to spin one tire again when you get back on it, and when you do apply more torque it will tighten up to where it might not slip one tire.  But it won't lock like a locker will, so in some situations you will end up spinning one tire (you'll still be sending more torque to the other tire, but maybe not enough torque to turn it).

Again, sorry if I'm being too picky here.  It's the engineer in me that wants the "right" words used.
Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 7:20pm
Bob,

Yes, your are picky and I don't do grammar or spelling - it is a gift that I have on top of poor typing.  I was just banging out a post. I love your response. Especially that part " Stev isn't wrong in his observations, or his recommendations".  Most people just think of it as locked since both wheels are turning together.

So lets be picky - My rear Powerlok (USMC Dana 44 - 19 spline) is set up with 5 friction surfaces on both sides and is as close as it gets to locked in the old school limited slip technology world.  The set up is designed to send 50% of the power to each wheel (50% left side + 50% right side = 100%) - I have had it chirp cornering on hard surface roads when it had new clutch packs (friction plates).  I have always assumed that was the same with lockers - but perhaps there is more than 100% of the power available with a lockers (100% left and 100% right = 200%).  I have never seen a limited slip wheel stop once it is locked/spun up by the Powerlok on the rear wheels.  I do think that over time, the friction surfaces wear and less power could be transferred - on a completely shot Powerlok. 

More opportunity for you to be Picky - just adding more discussion - the front Powerlok (Dana25 with a Dana 27 Powerlok from a Volvo that was machined to fit in the Dana 25) is set up so it has 3 friction surfaces on both sides, so it transfers 30% of the power to the wheel with tractions and still allow for nice steering (30% left + 70% right = 100%).  I have never seen this wheel stop once it has the torque transferred to it - but I think it is possible.  I have also never broken an axle (could be I just Jeep too softly). 

My other observation from years of using Powerloks is to keep your foot in it as you lose momentum and are heading towards being stuck.  You really need to spin the wheel a few times to get the cross shafts out on alignment in order to load up the clutch/friction plates to transfer the force to the wheel with traction.

A little worried now that I know the Willys Police and now the Grammar Police are leaking.

 Stev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatfender47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 7:31pm
No need to "keep your foot in it" with the Power Lok.
Simply stab the brake pedal a couple times while moving/climbing etc at whatever speed your currently moving at.
The brake action will cause it to engage.
That's how I was taught.
Yes, it works.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 7:42pm
Will have to try that out!  Thanks for the tip!
Stev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 8:02pm
So while trying to be respectful to my fellow enthusiasts, I will point out that having to "spin up" to engage the "locker" (apologies to Bob) or applying brakes while climbing a vertical wall that rolling back on or hesitating on can spell disaster is exactly what I meant by "not locking when you want them to."
I understand that lots of folks, probably most, don't find themselves on these types of vertical walls, but if you ever do, you will not want to apply brakes or have to have any delay in the locking action or you will find yourself testing out the welds on your roll bar. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 8:20pm
Stan - is correct!  ( Stan, probably loves to hear that more than I  love to write that).

Take a look a my Jeep and the limited slip mess climbing this little wall.  Look at about minute 8 into the video.  Watch how fast it "unlocks"/disengages.

Stev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 8:45pm
Before I reply to this I want to again apologize for being an engineer.

I also want to make sure that everyone knows that I really value your perspective from using a Powr Lok.  Unlike me you've used Powr Loks and that experience makes your advice very valuable.  I don't mean to be discounting that at all.

But understanding the nuts-and-bolts of how something works can give a different perspective that's also useful.  I'm not thinking my advice is better than or contrary to yours.  Just a different perspective, and hopefully both perspectives will help more people understand how it all comes together.

Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:

....  The set up is designed to send 50% of the power to each wheel (50% left side + 50% right side = 100%)....

Again being picky, power equals torque times speed, so if both tires are turning the same speed, 50% of the power to each tire means equal torque to each tire.  Equal torque is not what you want.  That's what open diffs do.  So Powr Loks aren't designed to give 50% of the power to each tire.  And you wouldn't like them if they did.

To best understand what they are designed to do it's probably easier to think of them as a limited grip differential rather than a limited slip.  Effectively any limited slip grip differential acts like a spool, locking both tires together up to a point.  At the point where they reach the limit of their grip they will slip (and they will slip forever, as long as you keep applying power, they won't limit how much slip is allowed).  While they slip they will apply more torque to the tire that has better traction, so they will still help you climb that hill better than an open diff.  But there is a limit at which they will slip (unlike a locker).

What a Powr Lok (and maybe some other LSDs) does is it adjust that limit based on what it thinks you need.  You don't want a spool on the street, so you want it to reach that limit sooner rather than later.  But on the trail you do want the tires locked together.  So a Powr Lok will shift between a loose limited slip grip and a tight limited slip grip as it senses the need.  But of course nothing mechanical is perfect at deciding what you need, so sometimes it bites you by loosening up when you want it to stay tight.

Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:

....   - I have had it chirp cornering on hard surface roads when it had new clutch packs (friction plates)....  I have never seen a limited slip wheel stop once it is locked/spun up by the Powerlok on the rear wheels.  I do think that over time, the friction surfaces wear and less power could be transferred - on a completely shot Powerlok.

Another way to think about a Powr Lok tightening and loosening is think of it like the clutch on the back of your Go Devil, but with the clutch linkage messed up a bit so it never completely disengages.  There's always some drag, but when you "let out the clutch pedal" by applying some torque to it it will engage.  When it engages it might not slip at all, but that's just because a Go Devil can't apply enough torque to make it slip (unless the clutch is wearing out).  But put that same clutch behind a 707 horse Hellcat engine and you'll find that it will slip quite a bit!
Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 8:51pm
Enjoyed the video, and like your Jeep. What engine are you running in it? 

Doesn't sound like the L134, but I have been fooled about that before.

See what you mean about the limitations of the Limited Slip compared to the lockers I assume are in "Bam Bam".

I don't expect to be doing any climbing like that with mine, and it looks like yours did fine in sand and mud. 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 9:11pm
The Saint has a L134 Flathead. T90c / D18 with Tera Low, Powerloks, Sami disc brakes up front.   If I ever go out West I would change the axles to LockRites for the trip and put together a disc brake parking brake on it for that trip.  It works fine for me in the Ohio Valley.  The limited slips seem to work fine in the snow plowing.

Sorry if we high jacked this thread.

Adding this about making comparison of Jeeps:

Jpet has magic his Jeep - more horse power, Different gearing and drive train, different suspension, different tires, Low tire air pressure and a ton more experience off roading and no fear.  So, In the video you cant really compare the two Jeeps.

If Stan and I lived closer and made a video that would probably show a better comparison of Jeeps with lockers and limited slip except for the fact that Stan has a ton more rock experience and seems to have the Jpet no fear gift. 

Both Jpet and Stan are far enders in the flat fender world of off roading.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 9:50pm
I think the OPs question has been answered by all the information already posted, so hopefully nobody will be worried about topic drift. It was Stan's fault by mentioning it was an interesting topic Wink

Stan's Jeep is the one which I was fooled about at first. After watching some of his videos I searched through his discussion threads and was very surprised to find out he was running a stock engine.

His and yours both seem to have plenty of power so I guess I will be fine using the L134 in both my Jeeps. The CJ2A I have is bone stock other than having later axles. It runs great, but doesn't have the same voice yours or Stan's has, which is probably just due to the muffler on it.  

I am in awe of what I have seen Stan and Jpet do with their Jeeps. I am not sure I would have the nerve, but am sure I don't have the skill at this point. My dad could finesse one of these Jeeps, and other vehicles through some pretty rough stuff, but that is something he never had much chance to pass on to me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2021 at 10:14pm
42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan. 2021 at 12:04am
I'm always amused at the debate this topic brings up! Talk about passion - and that's a good thing. 

I've run about every combination out there over the years. I know what works for me......and I ain't telling! LOL

I think of it this way - the best thing you can buy for traction is a winch. Wheel open/open - test your skills and equipment - use the winch to fix the stupid. As you tackle tougher obstacles, and desire to go further, then decide on axle upgrades. 

I learned a lot this summer in Moab. I had a bone stock JL with street tires. With some careful driving, i was AMAZED where a stock Jeep will go. Yeah, yeah, apples to oranges. But my point is, go have fun, test limits, then decide. A bone stock flatty will amaze you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatfender47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan. 2021 at 9:10pm
Having done the Power Loks for over 40 years, I suppose my previous post about applying the brakes while going up hill may not have been clear.
While driving up hill, if you feel maybe one side not turning, simply "stabbing" the brake pedal with your left foot will cause the wheel that is turning to momentarily freeze and force the other wheel to engage.
Of course, each uphill climb is different, as are the drivers, their Jeeps, and their own techniques, whether learned or observed.
For me, the "pedal to the metal" is not an option, as crawling while climbing is my preferred way of doing things.
To each their own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 1:21pm
Here is the absolute truth about locking differentials that I got straight from the internet.

1. Selectable lockers are the best
2. Selectable lockers are the worst
3. Automatic lockers are what you want
4. You don’t want automatic lockers
5. Limited slip is the perfect setup
6. Limited slip sucks.

I like nofenders advice. To paraphrase, drive open/open a while, gain some experience and then go from there. You don’t need a winch if you hang out with others who have a winch. Don’t necessarily make a decision based on someone else’s experience and especially when you are not sure what you want yet. I have changed my setup several times and each time I do, I learn new driving habits that capitalize strengths and avoid my weaknesses. My two cents

Stev,

Thanks for the compliments but I do have fear. I can get quite nervous. ... otherwise, if wouldn’t be as much fun.
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