Lockers |
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Lee MN
Member Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4954 |
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49 2A, D41 rear..... A season and a 1/2 on a “Lock Right”...... I absolutely HATE it! ..... Yes it’s nice in the mountains and it gets used a couple weeks a year if I’m lucky in that aspect, do I need it, not really.... It’s road manners are horrible with my radial tires (235-75-R15) it throws the front end to the right unexpectedly on deceleration, the constant ratcheting I find very annoying, and it scares a good share of my right seaters who are not used to it.... I will be going back to skinny ND tires this spring and will see how it goes with a little less tire contact on the road, if that helps take the pucker out of the drive I will keep it, if not I have a narrow offset 44 I will regear and set up with a manually shifted ox-locker for the mountains... And yes the Lock Right is shimmed within spec....
Lee😉 |
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LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History |
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3A Steve
Member Joined: 10 June 2016 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 880 |
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Do you have locking hubs? I find that with the hubs disengaged there is no negative impact from my lock rights but if I come off a trail and go on pavement without disengaging the hubs I get the issues you mention.
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Nothing Special
Member Joined: 02 Feb. 2018 Location: Roseville, MN Status: Offline Points: 845 |
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I used to have a Detroit in the rear of a CJ5 and a LockRight in the rear of an F-150. And I now have a Detroit in the rear of my Bronco (Detroit and LockRight work pretty much the same). I'm not surprised to hear Lee's thoughts. Personally I always have valued the lockers performance enough that I was willing to put up with the quirks on-road. But the quirks are real, and not everyone will weigh everything the same. And yes, mine all had locking hubs.
Also my CJ5 was by far the worst of my three for on-road manners. A longer wheelbase, more weight and an automatic transmission will all do a lot to damp out the bad manners. A CJ5 (and a CJ2a even more so) doesn't have any of those. Automatic lockers are great at what they're great at. But they sure aren't for everyone.
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Metcalf
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 21 May 2009 Location: Durango, Co Status: Offline Points: 736 |
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You forgot #7, just weld up both ends or use spools....it will be fine.
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42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.
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Rich M.
Member Joined: 03 Oct. 2015 Location: 21757 Status: Offline Points: 185 |
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Then there's the aspect of what terrain? There's no size fits all. I'm an " eastern" rigged wheeler. I tend to build slightly taller and narrower. Heavily rutted logging / fire roads loose forest floor and mudholes. I have zilch experience with things like slickrock.
Powerlocs work great for me. I have moved to a lock right in the rear. It behaves reasonably well. Chirps a little in tight turns on the street. One thing I can definitely say is with a warm odd fire I get some nasty torque steer if I put my foot in it. Otherwise I'll get used to it and learn it's quirks, pluses and minuses.
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Lee MN
Member Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4954 |
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Front axel is open 😁 Lee |
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LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History |
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Metcalf
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 21 May 2009 Location: Durango, Co Status: Offline Points: 736 |
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While I think having lockers is always better than not having lockers for off-road performance there are quirks. My current favorite combo is an automatic FRONT locker and a selectable REAR locker. For me, this has the best overall characteristics with the least amount of negative quirks. In my opinion, most of the quirks come from the REAR axle trying to push the vehicle straight. This loads the chassis up under power and pushing the vehicle to the outside of the turn. You can coast through some of the bad rear auto-locker issues....by coasting around all the corners, but on power you will notice more issues. With the rear diff open ( locker off ) there are no bad quirks from the front Automatic locker in 4wd ( or in 2wd with the hubs locked ). The only thing I notice is a slight increase in return to center feel through the wheel in 3wd. ( I do have power steering ). I haven't found any increase in steering force with the automatic front locker, even with really big 35 by wide tires at low single digit pressures. I actually think the automatic locker in front helps prevent scrub related steering issues compared to when you use a locked selectable in front. Turning radius seems to be the same as open/open and dang close to what it is in 2wd. It may even be tighter in certain situations because the front tires can 'pull' the chassis around in 3wd a bit more. I notice this more in slick conditions or when trying to turn and go uphill at the same time. In general, the vehicle goes where I point it and a I don't have to fight the steering. I have found that my REAR locker use is down to the point that I could just about put it on a momentary switch. This is when doing really difficult trails. I think adding rear cutting brakes would decrease it's use even more and increase the vehicle maneuverability even more. A lot of the rock buggy guys do this. At this point, even owning another very well set up off road vehicle with selectable/selectable locking diffs, I prefer the Automatic front and selectable rear combo in my flatty. Any new vehicle I build for off-road work, that is my go to starting point going forward. The only time I would recommend a selectable front locker over an automatic locker is if the vehicle is full time 4wd or perhaps if you happen to daily drive A LOT of icy roads ( and are the type of drive that puts in into 4wd and leaves it on winter roads.....I am a 'toggler', I only use 4wd on winter roads as needed, and generally below 50mph ) I did run an automatic front locker and rear power-lok limited slip on the flatty when I first put it together. While the addition of the selectable rear locker made it more capable in the end, the rear limited slip did a lot of the in-between things 'better', especially in rwd without having to push any buttons, but without being obtrusive. When pushing things and lifting tires, the rear limited slip did have limits. My ideal rear diff would be a good limited slip with a overriding locker that didn't need any ring gear movement to engage or disengage. My biggest complaint about selectable lockers, especially when used in front, don't like to immediately UNLOCK when you want them to. Enough rambling. |
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42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.
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OnlyOneDR
Member Joined: 05 July 2016 Location: R Status: Offline Points: 459 |
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I probably should not even engage in this conversation here, but are you sure your tires are inflated the same and/or have the same rolling radius? What you describe sounds like when two tires are not inflated to the same rolling radius, it constantly loads up one dog clutch and release around corners, deceleration, etc. I had to fine-tune the tires on my Nissan when it was rolling on fairly stock-ish tires and had a Detroit in the back. I pulled it only a level surface and used a tape measure to even out the height of the center of the rear wheel hub so they were the same. That helped a lot. You may need to do this with someone sitting in the driver's seat considering how light these vehicles are to best simulate the load.
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Searching for time to put it all together...
1950 CJ-3A #37751 In Pieces 1969 Chevy Blazer Resto-Mod Waiting for its day... 2001 Nissan Frontier Crawler Adventure Rig |
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3A Steve
Member Joined: 10 June 2016 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 880 |
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I also think I should just leave it be, but, went out today in my 3A with Lock-Rights front and rear. Did probably 25 or 30 miles to do some chores. Got up to 60 on a flat straight road. Even hit 64 going down a long gentle grade. Kept trying to see what the rear locker (the front hub were disengaged) did that would have aggravated Lee. Don't know what is causing his problems but wish he could drive my Willys. He says may think his radial tires are a problem. I have 215x85x16's (radial M/T's) on standard 4 1/2" rims. I really hate to see anyone pass on a rear locker when it really helps. Front lockers, at least Lock-Rights, are a different matter. These have benefits and problems. Still like having both. Lee, I hope you figure it out.
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Nothing Special
Member Joined: 02 Feb. 2018 Location: Roseville, MN Status: Offline Points: 845 |
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Tires are never exactly the same diameter, and even if they were, you're almost never driving in exactly a straight line. So an automatic locker is almost always driving only one tire. When it is, getting on the throttle will make the vehicle veer away from the tire that's driving and getting off it will make it veer toward that tire. I never noticed that in my F-150, I notice it any time I'm not completely distracted in my Bronco and it was always noticeable to me in my CJ5. The fact that Lee says it always pulls to the right might mean his right tire is
If the tires are different sizes, or if you aren't going in a straight line automatic lockers will ratchet. So this again might imply that Lee's tires aren't exactly the same size. But see above. It's never exact. So the frequency of the clicking might be reduced, but it will click
I wouldn't say my CJ5 scared very many people. But most people riding in it for the first time would ask what was wrong with my Jeep. Lee's symptoms are not unusual. They may be more extreme than typical, possibly due to tires that aren't the same size. But he might just be someone who dislikes a lockers quirks more than some of us do. Lockers are annoying. There's no getting around that. Not everyone is equally annoyed, and they're still well worth the annoyance to some of us. But they definitely aren't for everyone.
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Rick G
Member Joined: 17 May 2015 Location: Amarillo, TX Status: Offline Points: 1468 |
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I finally found my other penny, which now means I have $0.02, so I will give it to you.
I won’t try to convince you what to get or even which is better for which type of wheeling, just that this is what I have and these are my observations. I currently have a D41, D25, L134, D18, and the T90C. When I built Gus, I knew I wanted a locker in the rear. I also planned on full floating rear axles. With the full floater, I decided to “upgrade” to D44 30 spline axles shafts. As everyone knows, there are no selectable lockers for the D41 (although, I seriously considered building the Vern-O-Lock), and the Lock Right was crowding $400, so I decided to go with a $80 mini-spool for a D44 30 spline. I installed that and thought I could go anywhere. I was running 33x12.50x15 Mickey Thompson mud tires. I did notice my turning radius was a little larger than what I thought it should be, but I attributed it (wrongly) to the larger tires. One day in Colorado on the Grizzly Lake gatekeeper with jpet, Stan, et. al, I realized I couldn’t go anywhere with only a rear locker, so I bought and installed the Lock Right for the D25. When I first installed the front locker, I still had the 33x12.50’s, and I dropped it in low range 4wd going down my neighborhood street and went to make a left-hand turn and it just kept on going straight, right past my turn! Man, I didn’t like that at all! I thought I had made a major mistake installing that locker. That was until I learned what I could do with it. It changed everything for my off-roading. Yes, the pavement manners, and even the manners in the dirt are quirky, but I have learned to drive “around” them in order to conquer some obstacles. I have since swapped over to narrow tires and it has lessened some of those quirks as well. I like the fact that the lockers I have don’t need any situational circumstance to “work” (read here engage, lock, hook up or whatever). I have observed many jeeps with LSDs (“Likely-to-Slip“ Diffs..LOL) or clutch packs, etc. that simply don’t turn the wheel when it is needed. Can those jeeps conquer the same obstacle? Sure. Sometimes, the driver is experienced enough and can compensate or simply momentum and skinny pedal make it happen. I love knowing that all 4 of my wheels are turning at the same speed when I need it. I don’t even think about it. Yes, auto lockers have their quirks, but to maintain originality with our little Willys, I think it is a acceptable compromise. Here’s a video that shows my lockers working. This trail isn’t rock crawling either. If you want to focus on the locker traits, skip to about the 7 minute mark. At 9:20 you can see that both of my passenger side tires are off the ground and I didn’t need any wheel spin to “engage” the tires with traction. I just gave it a normal amount of throttle and the auto lockers did their job. Having a selectable or auto locker, in my opinion, simply works better than any other type of mechanism. Except, maybe the Auburn Limited slip E-locker for the D44.....but I sold that without ever using it. Ennyhoo, there’s my $0.02. Don’t spend it all in one place! |
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Lee MN
Member Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4954 |
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Yes sir you are correct, the tires are not the same exact height, I played around with air pressures last fall with mixed results, then I compared tire height and found a difference (why I do not know as all 4 tires were purchased as a set and on matching wheels) if I air the short one up to the same height it’s manners are more manageable, but still I’m not happy with its operation, I will see in the spring how it’s manners are on 7.00x16 NDCC, if I don’t care for it then it’s going away! Lee |
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LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History |
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Lots of good info here . . but to add my "perspective" . . and this goes to "it depends on how you use it"
Wilson has TrueTrac LS in rear and eLocker in front. I don't think I ever want to change that. It feels "open" on dry roads in 2WD . . . seems "locked" in mud . . it has better traction than open, with no ill effects in snow, (the one day I tried it, ) The best thing about the TrueTrac is that it does not leave marks in our yard when making turns going uphill. Our property is sloped. With open diff, it is not unusual for one tire to slip. Same thing with automatic locker, only one tire is pushing (until it slips enough that other side starts helping). A selectable, when locked, is skidding one tire or the other all the time. The TrueTrac never leaves a mark (unless both start spinning). The only times I wish I had something different is offroad when really twisted up, and rear tire is off the ground, or close to it. The front selectable sure helps in those situations, but having the rear "locked" also would be better. I did discover one time this past summer that the "parking brake" trick really does work with TrueTrac. (Wilson has 11" rear drums, not driveshaft brake). I plan to try that more in future. No option is better for everything, but this combo works best for me.
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nofender
Member Sponsor Member x 3 Joined: 10 May 2016 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 2036 |
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Just a quick comment on Wilson's set up. I've wheeled with Wilson. My rig is on 39 inch sticky tires and has all sorts of wiz bang goodies in the axles and the suspension. Every time I looked in my mirror - there was Wilson. I couldn't shake that Jeep! My point - the driver is a huge factor in the equation.....as Ron demonstrates on the regular.
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46 CJ2a rockcrawler
46 CJ2a - 26819 46 Bantam T3c "4366" 47 Bantam T3C - 11800 68-ish CJ5 |
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Thanks for the kind words! but we know that is not totally true, I can't follow everywhere. Not enough clearance, wheelbase, or NERVE! Truly amazing where you can go.
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SnorriS
Member Joined: 21 June 2018 Location: Grand Junction Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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I have been following Stan and Grampa's Jeep for a while and want to set my '48 cj2a up the same way. I too have the same self imposed "stock except what you can't see without a wrench" limitations. Even my camp is mostly time period or garage/farm mechanic themed. In the process, I have found that the Dana 25 and Dana 27 front ends have different part numbers for Powertrax Lock Right lockers. Also I have asked Powertrax and Stan about using the Lock right 2115-lr made for a Dana 27 in a Dana 25. Powertrax says they are the same part with different numbers and Grampa's Jeep is living proof of the compatibility. I say all this, after I have ordered my 2115-lr as all those looking for a 2110=lr know they are forever on back order as Powertrax has not gotten any in from their supply chain.
The other piece of this discussion is the question of Front vs. Rear lockers. Without rehashing all that dialog, I have chosen to put the front autolocker in first and answer my own question about using just a front locker. I intend to pull the shift pill in the twin stick to allow full operational ability of the transfer case. When it is done and I have my own experience on the subject, I will post an update for all those folks who, like me, ponder the locker question: What comes first, the front or the back?
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48 in process
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