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My Brakes Seized up on the Trail

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captianpattson View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Mar. 2018 at 4:48am
Hey everyone, I took my jeep out on a trail for the first time today with a buddy of mine. We got about a mile down the road and realized that when I tried to shift into second gear it would stall because the jeep would suddenly come to a stop before I could even shift. We got out and realized that all the brakes were seized up, even the brake light was on. I did a disc brake conversion on all four wheels so it isn't stock but the MC is stock. The rotors were super hot. I crawled under and loosened one of the bleeder nuts and everything let go. It shot a bit of fluid out. Luckily we were on a pretty flat ground otherwise the jeep would have rolled over me underneath it (I've never claimed to be smart). my rig doesn't have a master cylinder heatshield in between the exhaust, do you think this could have been a contributing factor? I loosened the cap on the MC so it couldn't build up pressure in the system on the way back and I didn't have any problems. Anyone had a similar problem? Any suggestions? I can either get a heat shield or wrap the exhaust?...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2018 at 10:22am
is your brake pedal adjusted from proper free play? If not, the internal port in the MC may not be uncovered by the piston. This allows pressure to be equalized or relieved in the system. Heat wrap would be a good idea if you don't have a heat shield. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2018 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by ndnchf ndnchf wrote:

is your brake pedal adjusted from proper free play? If not, the internal port in the MC may not be uncovered by the piston. This allows pressure to be equalized or relieved in the system. Heat wrap would be a good idea if you don't have a heat shield. 
X2. Free play is important and needs to be checked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2018 at 2:08pm
X3 on the free play!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote captianpattson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2018 at 2:13pm
I haven't adjusted them at all, so that's most likely the culprit. I'll do some reading. Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2018 at 2:28pm
I had the exact same problem with my 4 wheel disc conversion.  I struggled with this problem for weeks. I built a heat shield for the master cylinder, wrapped the exhaust, wrapped the brake lines, even had the exhaust rerouted.  I had built my disc brake system with a new Wilwood dual reservoir master cylinder in the original location.  I was FRUSTRATED beyond comprehension.  I took heat readings all over trying to find a hot spot and it didn’t exist.  I even thought I was going to have to use that special high temp brake fluid.  When I drove mine about 3 miles it would lock the brakes up so tight, I couldn’t get the jeep to move even in 4wheel drive low range!  

Finally, I called Wilwood for help.  I told him the temps I was seeing in the brake system and he said that was not hot at all.  He said I didn’t have enough pedal play.  I ended up having to cut about a 1/2” off my brake rod because of how I built my mounting bracket.  Voila’!  Problem solved!  Brakes work perfect now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2018 at 1:17am
X5 on the lack of free play being the culprit, minus one on the lack of a heat shield being the culprit.
  You say you are using the stock master cylinder - if you did not remove the residual pressure check valve, the disc brakes will not release completely. If you do remove it, the rear wheel cylinders will leak.  BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote captianpattson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2018 at 2:10am
I'm going to readjust the brakes this weekend. I did remove the rpv prior to installation. I haven't had any issues with the rear cylinders leaking. What would cause this issue? I haven't installed a proportioning valve yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2018 at 2:47am
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

  if you did not remove the residual pressure check valve, the disc brakes will not release completely. If you do remove it, the rear wheel cylinders will leak.  BW

I originally installed Wilwood 2 psi residual valves, one for the front and one for the rear (4wheel disc).  I have since gutted both valves and have had zero issues without them.  

Bruce, I’m not sure I understand why the rear wheel cylinders will leak if you remove the pressure residual valve(s)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2018 at 12:34pm
Something else to consider: If this system has rubber flex lines hoses, they can also act like check valves when they get old.  The hoses can collapse once you take you foot off of the break - trapping the fluid in the wheel cylinders / pistons - keeping the breaks engaged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2018 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:

Something else to consider: If this system has rubber flex lines hoses, they can also act like check valves when they get old.  The hoses can collapse once you take you foot off of the break - trapping the fluid in the wheel cylinders / pistons - keeping the breaks engaged.
Yes they will! This caused my old 9" brake set-up to lock up the rear brakes after every application of the brakes. I thought I was not adjusting the brakes right but it turned out to be the frame-to-axle brake hose collapsing. During my recent 11" conversion I changed out all the hoses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2018 at 4:47am
Originally posted by Rick G Rick G wrote:

Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

  if you did not remove the residual pressure check valve, the disc brakes will not release completely. If you do remove it, the rear wheel cylinders will leak.  BW

I originally installed Wilwood 2 psi residual valves, one for the front and one for the rear (4wheel disc).  I have since gutted both valves and have had zero issues without them.  

Bruce, I’m not sure I understand why the rear wheel cylinders will leak if you remove the pressure residual valve(s)?

The reason (or one of) for the residual pressure valve is to keep a small amount of pressure in the wheel cylinders so that the lips of the rubber cups will be pressed against the wall of the cylinder, making a good seal. This helps to keep the brake fluid in where it belongs, and helps to keep air, water, and dirt out. Maybe I should have said they may leak, or will eventually leak.   BW


Edited by Bruce W - 20 Mar. 2018 at 4:49am
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote captianpattson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar. 2018 at 9:39pm
I shortened the rod and adjusted it so there was a very slight amount of movement before the rod begins to move the piston and confirmed that the piston now rests on the snap ring. I've driven it around the neighborhood a couple of miles and no sign of the brakes retaining any pressure. Thanks guys! I would have chased the exhaust heat issue had it not been for your suggestions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar. 2018 at 10:01pm
Good news - glad it was something simple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 47heater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2018 at 7:58pm
Help ! I'm having the same problem with my brakes. Front disc brake conversion with 11" rear drum brakes, Dual reservoir MC, New brake lines , new rubber hoses. The front Disc Brakes seized up & won't release. If I loosen up the bleeder valve they release. I have shortened the brake rod & adjusted the free play. It still seizes up. Where should I look next?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baker6x6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2018 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by 47heater 47heater wrote:

Help ! I'm having the same problem with my brakes. Front disc brake conversion with 11" rear drum brakes, Dual reservoir MC, New brake lines , new rubber hoses. The front Disc Brakes seized up & won't release. If I loosen up the bleeder valve they release. I have shortened the brake rod & adjusted the free play. It still seizes up. Where should I look next?


You MUST use a master cylinder for front disc brakes- OR defeat the- internal residual check valve- built into the Master Cylinder (for the front line only). Drum brakes require the check valves- Disc systems do not need them.
You can take the MC apart, and drill/remove the rubber flap from the check valve for the section you are using for the front brakes.
*I don't know what MC you are using- and some use the front reservoir, others use the rear, some are interchangeable.
The checkvalve in most MC's Ive seen is a stamped "cap" looking thing with a rubber flap inside it. It is usually made to fit on the end of one of the internal springs. Usually- nearest the outlet for that reservoir.

That checkvalve does not allow the pressure to bleed back into the reservoir for disc brake systems.

ALSO- on your OEM cylinder, there is a smaller "port"- usually just in front of a larger "hole". This port allows excess pressure back into the reservoir, when the pedal returns to it's at-rest position. (This is why you need the correct freeplay- so that port is uncovered when the pedal returns)
Sometimes- especially if you (or someone) has HONED the cylinder- that port will be blocked with crud. It MUST be open- or you will eventually build up too much system pressure, and your brakes will lock up. You can clear the blockage with a pin, needle, or a welding tip cleaning tool.


Edited by Baker6x6 - 21 May 2018 at 9:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote captianpattson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2018 at 10:07pm
Basically either your piston is not returning to the rest position or you still have some sort of residual pressure valve present. Is your MC new?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 47heater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2018 at 10:44pm
It's a new MC sold as a MC for disc brakes in the front & rear drum brakes
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