New guy , fuel issues

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   Well I did it , I own a… well that’s complicated.  It does however have flat fenders.      The title says it’s a 48 2A but the key location and tool box edge tells a different story.       The previous owner bought it and drove it for several years.  When Uncle Sam moved him from Bremerton to San Diego he drove it down.  Drove it two years and back up to Seattle after that posting.   Then something went off the rails and he tried to fix it.    A new repop carb , a mechanical fuel pump, an electrical fuel pump , new tank fuel pressure regulator , new fuel lines and she still didn’t run.      Sent it to a “mechanic” and it was worse.  Fast forward a few years, the chairman of the board says “no more paying storage, fix it or get rid of it”.I figured for 3 grand how far wrong can I go for a complete unit.    No numbers anywhere but it has a title using a unique ID number issued by Washington state. I bought a pig in a poke.   New top, overdrive, good htight feeling tranny , decent paint and enough bondo to make everything straight.l   Replaced the non functioning electric fuel pump, the new mech pump is bypassed.     Got it running , found no springs in distributor. Got the proper tools to adjust the carb, it was a mess  Timed it and tuned, points, condenser and plugs.  
   Shot enough PB BLASTER into the cylinders to free the sluggish valves.    She purrs like  a happy kitten now however… it acts like it runs out of gas when I hit third and I believe it’s missing on one cylinder at speed. 
     I have a plastic fuel filter just before the carb and it appears to be air locked. The fuel level in the filter never fills up to the filter outlet.     I’ve let it idle for quite a while here and it never seems to raise but the engine still runs.     Maybe still on the float bowl fuel.     How do I determine if I have a high speed / high load miss ? 

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Heviduty Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 01 Dec. 2021 Location: Salem Oregon Status: Offline Points: 49	Post Options Post Reply Quote Heviduty Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: New guy , fuel issues Posted: 07 Dec. 2021 at 6:06pm
	Well I did it , I own a… well that’s complicated. It does however have flat fenders. The title says it’s a 48 2A but the key location and tool box edge tells a different story. The previous owner bought it and drove it for several years. When Uncle Sam moved him from Bremerton to San Diego he drove it down. Drove it two years and back up to Seattle after that posting. Then something went off the rails and he tried to fix it. A new repop carb , a mechanical fuel pump, an electrical fuel pump , new tank fuel pressure regulator , new fuel lines and she still didn’t run. Sent it to a “mechanic” and it was worse. Fast forward a few years, the chairman of the board says “no more paying storage, fix it or get rid of it”.I figured for 3 grand how far wrong can I go for a complete unit. No numbers anywhere but it has a title using a unique ID number issued by Washington state. I bought a pig in a poke. New top, overdrive, good htight feeling tranny , decent paint and enough bondo to make everything straight.l Replaced the non functioning electric fuel pump, the new mech pump is bypassed. Got it running , found no springs in distributor. Got the proper tools to adjust the carb, it was a mess Timed it and tuned, points, condenser and plugs. Shot enough PB BLASTER into the cylinders to free the sluggish valves. She purrs like a happy kitten now however… it acts like it runs out of gas when I hit third and I believe it’s missing on one cylinder at speed. I have a plastic fuel filter just before the carb and it appears to be air locked. The fuel level in the filter never fills up to the filter outlet. I’ve let it idle for quite a while here and it never seems to raise but the engine still runs. Maybe still on the float bowl fuel. How do I determine if I have a high speed / high load miss ?

jpoole Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 15 Dec. 2020 Location: Chattanooga TN Status: Offline Points: 91	Post Options Post Reply Quote jpoole Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 9:26am
	I'm not a regular here but have been enjoying this forum so will try to contribute and hope the following is helpful. Does the engine sound good through the full rpm range in first and second gear? Does it sound good when you run the rpms up/down while not in gear? Those details won't necessarily indicate your exact issue but can help eliminate a few possibilities. Since it's so easy I'd play with adding some choke while the stumbling occurs to learn if this is possibly a fuel starvation issue. If adding some choke and richening the mixture brings the power back and smooths things out then you'll know it's starving under load. You could also be running too rich or have a weak spark under load so adding fuel may make it worse. If it is lean you may want to start by looking for air leaks in the intake system before jumping into carb adjustments. You can also explore overall advance for your timing to see if different settings make any difference under load. Although it's often easiest to just set the timing at idle I think that timing at operating/driving rpms is more important for getting power and running cool when you need it. The fact that you've changed springs, etc. could mean that the advance mech. isn't setup correctly. I recommend getting an at idle advance and an overall/high rpm advance and then researching what your engine needs and making adjustments to get your advance curve to match. Distributors can vary but yours sounds like a mechanical only (no vacuum) advance and you should be able to tune base and overall advance by bending/adjusting tabs in the distributor, etc. if needed. This thread may be helpful: https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/total-advance-for-l134_topic47003.html My assumption is that your air/fuel ratio is off or timing is off and causing the stumbling under load. You may also have weak spark or similar ignition system issues. I assume there could be other issues like valve float causing compression loss (weak springs or sticky stems), intermittent/variable intake air leaks, inconsistent excess mechanical drag, etc. but these seem likely to show up in other scenarios beyond just 3rd gear acceleration, etc. I look forward to seeing what the problem ends up being and to what the experts say on the subject. Good luck!

dasvis Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Sep. 2019 Location: Salem, Oregon Status: Offline Points: 1544	Post Options Post Reply Quote dasvis Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 10:43am
	Also - make sure your fuel cap is venting.
	1947 CJ2A #88659 "Rat Patrol" 1953 CJ3A #453-GB1 11266 "Black Beauty" 1964 Thunderbird convertible ..... & one of them moves under it's own power!!

Heviduty Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 01 Dec. 2021 Location: Salem Oregon Status: Offline Points: 49	Post Options Post Reply Quote Heviduty Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 11:51am
	Good info guys. Thanks. I’ll try grabbing a little choke. I think the high speed stumble is the valves still getting sticky when it gets warm. I drove it again yesterday and when it’s still warming up it runs great even under load. It’s only when I get a bit down the road that it begins to stumble. When I took another run i pulled over immediately and at that time I could hear definite valve train clatter. Fifty pounds of oil pressure so I’m pretty confident it’s oiling. I have mmo in fuel and a pint in the crank. It did help the valves a bunch with PB blaster in plug holes earlier. Did that again last night. I didn’t consider blocked fuel cap. I did pull the line off carb and run it into a pint bottle and it overfilled the bottle in seconds. I doesn’t cost anything to make a test run with a loose cap. I’ll give that a whirl. After the test run last night I limped home. By the time I got home the valve clatter was gone and a vacuum gauge showed steady at idle. No leaky valves then. Also when I got back I looked at the fuel filter and it only had about a teaspoon of fuel in it. It does kinda spit fuel onto the paper element. But none seems to drop down to fill the filter body. I’m assuming it’s pulling enough through the paper to keep running. The plugs aren’t black and sooty like it’s overfueling. I did order gaskets last night in prep to pulling the manifolds. I sprayed blaster on the nuts yesterday and noticed they were brass so I’ve got that going for me.

Heviduty Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 01 Dec. 2021 Location: Salem Oregon Status: Offline Points: 49	Post Options Post Reply Quote Heviduty Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 11:55am
	I’m also going to try burping the filter and see if that helps. After that I guess removing it altogether might be in order as a test.

Mark W. Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 09 Nov. 2014 Location: Silverton, OR Status: Offline Points: 7977	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mark W. Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 12:08pm
	have you adjusted the valves ?
	Chug A Lug 1948 2A Body Customized 1949 3A W/S 1957 CJ5 Frame Modified Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962

Heviduty Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 01 Dec. 2021 Location: Salem Oregon Status: Offline Points: 49	Post Options Post Reply Quote Heviduty Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 1:57pm
	No Mark I have not adjusted the valves. My experience in a past life leads me to dig deep into old engines only when necessary. My hope was that as this was a daily driver when taken out of service things like valves grossly out of adjustment would not be an issue. It did sit for about five years however and I do understand how when driving something everyday some thing can seem normal when they are not. Kind of how a person automatically steers a bit left to compensate for a pull to the right while braking to maintain a straight line of travel. Until it gets extremely bad a person might not notice it. I drove it again this morning. A few more data points. It runs great as long as I keep it below about 30 MPH. It runs so good that I feel the need to let her run. All seems great until I go for overdrive and then the valves start clattering. Slow down and limp it for a bit and she quiets down and runs good again. It does take thirty seconds for the clatter to go away so it’s not a rod knocking under load. I put a wrench on a couple of manifold nuts that are easy to reach and it looks like they will come right off. I’ve never adjusted valves in anything before but when the gaskets arrive I’m going in. I’m about twenty miles south or you Mark. I’m looking forward to seeing your Jeep someday.

smfulle Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 16 Sep. 2010 Location: Ogden, Utah Status: Online Points: 6140	Post Options Post Reply Quote smfulle Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 2:20pm
	If you're a bit bendy, you don't need to pull the manifolds to adjust the valves. It's a little tricky getting that side cover out of the way, and even more tricky getting it back on without messing the gasket up, but if I can do it, anyone can. Defiantly easier with the manifolds off, and the left fender off, but not required.
	Stan 48 CJ2A (Grampa's Jeep) 59 Chevy 1/2 ton Grampa's Jeep Build Thread

Mark W. Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 09 Nov. 2014 Location: Silverton, OR Status: Offline Points: 7977	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mark W. Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 3:28pm
	I strongly suspect valves out of adjustment when I hear valves clattering. WHERE is the electric fuel pump located? An electric fuel pump as a pusher should fill that fuel filter right up. If its not I suspect the pump is above the level of the bottom of the tank and at load does not provide enough fuel trying to SUCK. Since electric pumps DO NOT SUCK they Push. If the valves were not adjusted after a run to San Diego and Back I would think they would be well due. The Military TM suggests every 6000 miles. But if they were not adjusted after a rebuild it could be way past time. My engine is a fresh rebuild. At about 250 miles I adjusted the valves after carefully setting them up during the assembly of the engine I was amazed at how far a couple of them were out and really all needed something. Send me a Private message. I'm not working so much this time of year I might be able to come see if I can help. Edited by Mark W. - 08 Dec. 2021 at 3:41pm
	Chug A Lug 1948 2A Body Customized 1949 3A W/S 1957 CJ5 Frame Modified Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962

cpt logger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 23 Sep. 2012 Location: Western Colorad Status: Offline Points: 3039	Post Options Post Reply Quote cpt logger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 4:51pm
	Mark, Good show. Thanks for helping a fellow Jeep nut out. Heviduty, Welcome to the madness! You are in good hands here, both with Mark & the rest of us yahoos. We are happy to help. Please keep us up to date on your CJ. Thanks in advance, Matt W, AKA Cpt Logger.

Lee MN Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4945	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lee MN Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 5:12pm
	Sir, in your first post you mentioned changing the ignition points, what brand did you use ?. Lee
	LEE 44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History

Heviduty Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 01 Dec. 2021 Location: Salem Oregon Status: Offline Points: 49	Post Options Post Reply Quote Heviduty Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 5:15pm
	Ha, I’ve been called a lot of things but “bendy, not so much. I’ve spent enough time crammed into boat bilges over the years that I’ve learned sometimes it’s just not worth trying to be bendy when the offending obstacle can be moved out of the way with a few bolts and maybe a gasket. The valve clatter is non existent when the engine is running at less than high speed or full operating temp. Remove either one and she sounds great. Only when running high and warm is there an issue. If I stop after the noise starts and idle it’s definitely there for twenty seconds then she settles down, begins running on all four again. The electric fuel pump is tucked into the frame about a foot in front of and well below the tank. It’s full flooded suction and pumps a ton of fuel. It does not act like a fuel starvation situation. After running it today when I would open the throttle it would shoot a big shot of fuel into the filter as the needle valve opened. Probably overthinking the filter fill thing as it doesn’t seem to be a fuel stumble. The plug color looks good. Before I got the carb sorted out I know it was dumping a ton of fuel into the manifold. It never seemed to lean out ever like it would if fuel flow was an issue. I’m going to ignore it for now. More pressing issues. I now know why there is no tread on the left front tire. Researching disc brake conversions now.

jpoole Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 15 Dec. 2020 Location: Chattanooga TN Status: Offline Points: 91	Post Options Post Reply Quote jpoole Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 5:58pm
	Agree on checking valve clearances and making sure that there is enough gap (whatever the spec is) to handle stem expansion from heat. Don't know how dirty things are in the engine but could also help to explore trying to clean things out in case there is extra gunk that is combining with heat expansion to cause the valves to get too sticky for the springs to close. There may be some combination of opening the valves manually while hitting them with cleaner/MMO while you are in there for adjustments that could help. Maybe just run a high detergent oil for a while. I've had old flathead engines display sticky valves after sitting a few times and ran a quart of MMO in the oil to try to clean things out. Don't know if it was the MMO or just running the engine but they always sorted themselves out.

Heviduty Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 01 Dec. 2021 Location: Salem Oregon Status: Offline Points: 49	Post Options Post Reply Quote Heviduty Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 7:26pm
	Lee, I have no idea what brand as my receipt only has numbers and no brand. the points had been changed by the previous owner and looked new. I had dismissed them as a non issue on first glance. When it became apparent my issues were not entirely fuel related I went back for another look. They were new looking but I took a picture of the contacts and zoomed way in for a closeup. They didn’t look shiny. I decided that instead of working with parts of questionable quality I would start with a known good set.I figured they could be held as a spare part if they proved not to be problematic. When I compared them to the new ones I tossed them in trash. The guy at the parts counter declared then “junk”. The new set were much better in quality if visual inspection was any indicator. The points were my whole ignition issue. Changed them and she started right up I’m still a victim the whole “ not going into an old engine if no need”. I’ve killed some very nice equipment as a kid with a hammer and socket set. I learned a lot but let’s just say a whole lot more came apart than ever went back together. Don’t get me wrong , if the head needs to come off she will but the plan is to pull the side cover off and learn things in there first. The valves are closing just fine when cool. A warm compression test shows 110 or as near as I can tell on all holes. There will be no need to hammer on any valves. The head may need to come off if it is determined that a valve stem/guide cleaning is in order. If this head had been off recently and I knew nothing was likely to break then sure , I’d yank it tomorrow. The oil was down about a pint so that’s how much MMO I put in. Might not be enough but it’s some. I fogged the heck out of it with sea foam today and letting that soak. We used it a lot on old boat engines and never saw it do any damage. What the heck, all I need is two drops of oil in the right place. My house is about six miles from my workshop. It’s a matter of pride that I will not need to load “UH-OH” ( I guess that’s her name , the wife thinks “rolling thunder” might not be an applicable name) back on the trailer. So far I’ve made it about a mile.

Heviduty Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 01 Dec. 2021 Location: Salem Oregon Status: Offline Points: 49	Post Options Post Reply Quote Heviduty Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 7:30pm
	Oops jpool I misread your post. I understand that you were not advocating hitting the valves themselves. I’ve seen suggestions to that effect offered in forums before and jumped to a conclusion. My bad. Gary

Lee MN Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4945	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lee MN Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 9:41pm
	Sir, the reason I ask is the Napa Eklin brand of points come with an assist spring in the box that is separate or “loose” in the box from the point set itself. Often this spring is missing from the box altogether and if installed without it at around 30 mph the points begin to float and it will not go any faster, years ago this happened to me and as I read through your post it sounds very much like what I had happen to me. It may not be your issue but thought I would mention it Lee
	LEE 44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History

Heviduty Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 01 Dec. 2021 Location: Salem Oregon Status: Offline Points: 49	Post Options Post Reply Quote Heviduty Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 Dec. 2021 at 10:20pm
	Ok Lee now you have my curiosity up. It was not a Napa store but rather an independent. While installing the points my impression was that the spring tension was noticeably quite stiff. It’s been forty years since I’ve worked on a points distributor so my finger tension might be a bit out of calibration. I wanted to carry a spare set anyway so I could drop in and get a second set. I think I’ve gone into a holding pattern until my gaskets come in Friday. I’ll blow the fogging oil out tomorrow and take a short drive in the morning but I have limited expectations of success. Thanks Gary And please don’t call me sir, whenever somebody calls me sir I start looking around for dad.

jpoole Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 15 Dec. 2020 Location: Chattanooga TN Status: Offline Points: 91	Post Options Post Reply Quote jpoole Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Dec. 2021 at 12:23am
	Gary, If you decide to hammer on the valves start the camera up first if you don't mind :) I was recommending something more gentle like prying them open. You don't want to move them beyond the normal travel range to avoid spring damage, or perhaps just move them a tiny bit to see if they are perhaps sticky only when traveling farther which they may do when the stem warms, lengthens and tolerances generally tightened. I've quickly found the sticky valves this way on flathead engines when one or two didn't snap back quickly or fully like the others did. If this engine had an overhead valve hammering could make sense I guess. 30 years ago my farm work included hammering on the valves stems of diesel well/pump engines that had been rebuilt to help seat the valves in before first start. Seems like there are better ways to seat valves but that's the way the mechanic I was helping had me do it. One other note, I've found that engines sometimes smoke with the MMO in the crankcase even though they don't with straight oil. If you happen to start to see some smoke out of the tailpipe remember that it may just be the MMO/thinner oil.