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LesBerg View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Sep. 2018 at 10:52pm
Is there an acceptable amount of side-play (wobble) on a T90J input shaft?
I'm installing a freshly built transmission, but I'm looking to figure out if the old one has any problems other than heavily worn syncro dogs on second gear.
 
I'll mic the parts anyway to check bearing clearances on the input shaft and mainshaft. I know the cluster gear needs to be replaced.
 
Thanks guys,
Les


Edited by LesBerg - 01 Apr. 2019 at 11:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2018 at 2:48pm
Les,

I am not an expert on transmissions but - nothing that spins fast should have side to side pay in it.  It seems that side to side play in the input shaft would cause the Main shaft (and the input shaft) to move and change the mesh of the gears with the cluster gear.  The front bearing is probably warn and / or the needle bearings at the interface between the input shaft and the main shaft.

There has to be an expert - who could give a definitive answer.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2018 at 4:00pm
No expert here either. 
Besides the more you know, the more you realize what little you know. That's for sure...

The maindrive gear (input shaft) always rides on ball bearings and not on tapered nor on needle bearings.
The bearing itself is a deep groove ball bearing design.
It will allow for a very limited amount of deviation up/down and side to side angle. 
I'd say a few thousands motion at the end of the input shaft.
So a very limited amount of shaft side motion may be notable on used bearings.
Tapered and needle bearings really are not designed to handle minor misalignment as a ball bearing can..

These maindrive and mainshaft bearings are normally good for 100K plus miles of operation.
If its already apart and has over 100K it's a good time to change the  bearings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkamonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2018 at 4:04pm
The wobble you see is cured by the bushing on the engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2018 at 6:59pm
No time like the present to change worn out parts and that includes bearings. Otherwise, you will be kicking yourself after a few more miles for not having done it in the first place.

There is a reason for the old saying, "a stitch in time saves nine."

If you don't repair it right, whatever you are working on will become a garage queen.

It is hard enough to take a transmission out of a jeep anyway...don't temp fate.

Edited by SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A - 10 Sep. 2018 at 7:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2018 at 9:15pm
I say go for it, with the crank bushing it will be fine. remember Stan"s worn kingpin bearing repair? still good. These old workhorses want to run so let it and fix only what is broken. 

Belleview ol skool winch soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2018 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by jeeper50 jeeper50 wrote:

I say go for it, with the crank bushing it will be fine. remember Stan"s worn kingpin bearing repair? still good. 

Nice to be remembered as the most Bubba of regular posters. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2018 at 9:25pm
The best of intentions Stan, no disrepect to the master of the Moab

Belleview ol skool winch soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2018 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by jeeper50 jeeper50 wrote:

The best of intentions Stan, no disrepect to the master of the Moab

No disrespect taken. I think Bubba was a genius and am proud to follow in his footsteps. 
"Whatever gets you back on the trail" is what I say.

Back to the regularly scheduled transmission discussion. 
Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2018 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by Unkamonkey Unkamonkey wrote:

The wobble you see is cured by the bushing on the engine.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep. 2018 at 9:52pm
thanks guys! I replaced everything except first, reverse, and the reverse idler shaft. oddly enough, once all the new parts were in and buttoned up, the play in the shaft was only slightly less that the old setup.
 
So I'll mic the parts and see if they're good for building a stand-by unit.
 
BTW, I was less than pleased with the Crown synchros. One was measurably out-of-round and it took a couple hundred miles of driving to get it to downshift into second (mostly) reliably.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr. 2019 at 11:15pm
So I want to update my trans rebuild.

At first, the trans was difficult to to shift into second - up and down. I rolled with it because I read a number of posts between CJ2A and 3A forums that it was common for a new synchro assembly to be tight, but that it would wear in.

It eased up after about a thousand miles or so, but instead of shifting normally it either needed a hard push to go into second or it would flop in with a quick grind. Pulling back to neutral for a re-try didn't usually help.

Now at about 5000 miles, it grinds into second gear every time. For about a week I could double-clutch second gear and avoid the grind, but that's not working any more either.

I have the top off the trans and there's about .005" end play in the main shaft - i.e.: the output gear is on, the nut is tight and the shaft moves.

In addition, the clutch collar engagement teeth on the brand-new second gear are shot, second gear has about 0.012" of end-play on the shaft itself (in addition to the play in the mainshaft), and the entire (new) synchro assembly moves on the mainshaft.

ALL of these parts were brand new. The cluster gear, the input gear, main shaft, synchro assy, second gear, bearings - literally everything except reverse, the reverse shaft, and first gear.

When I received the parts, second gear wouldn't even slide onto the mainshaft. I had to hone the bushing to get it to fit. In the end, I managed to get 0.003" of end-play with no other movement.

The blocking ring for third gear wasn't round - it was flattened a bit and I wasn't sure it would work. Once the trans was assembled, shifting second to third and back was extremely difficult without the shift cover, but it could be done.

In the end, I blame myself. I avoided brands I know are crap but still opted to build the trans with obviously out-of-spec parts.

I'm hoping to pull the trans and t-case this weekend and replace the synchro assembly and second gear with the best of my used parts. You know, those parts I opted not to use in the first place. Unhappy

On a side note, I purchased a new speedometer at the same time. It's the same brand as all the parts above. It's crap too. Over the course of an hour drive on flat roads, the analog speedometer will show several different speeds for the same GPS-indicated speed:

50mph actual speed will show on the speedometer as anything between 48 and 57mph. Analog speed doesn't change while holding a GPS-indicated speed, but it's different every time I accelerate to 50mph as indicated on GPS.

For the record, I do not expect an analog speedo to agree with GPS. Especially when running larger tires. But I do expect the speedometer to read consistently - if the speedometer reads 57mph for an actual 60mph, then I expect it to read 57 every time my actual speed is 60.

My apologies for the rant, but I'm at wits end. I can't afford to replace the parts I really couldn't afford to replace the first time.

-Les


Edited by LesBerg - 02 Apr. 2019 at 12:48am
1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr. 2019 at 10:21pm
Full disclosure.
There were two root problems:

First, there's something up with the synchro hub. It moves axially on the mainshaft and creates too much room for the second gear blocking ring. I cant tell if the synchro is free to turn with the mainshaft or if it just cocks over, but something isn't right.

Second, in the words of my kids, "I did a dumb":
The case I used for the build is shot. The front hole for the cluster gear shaft and front bearing hole are wallowed out and I didn't notice.
Then, when I checked for play in the mainshaft and assembling the transmission with a spare transfer case snugged up to it, I didn't use a gasket.
But I did use a gasket when I installed the transfer case in the jeep.

Checking it over now, I get mainshaft play with a gasket, and none if I remove it.




Edited by LesBerg - 03 Apr. 2019 at 11:10pm
1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
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rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatfender47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr. 2019 at 11:57pm
Why does it always seem that there is never enough time or money to do the job right the first time.....
but plenty of both to do the job over ???

Do the job once, do the job right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr. 2019 at 6:13am
I'll tyoe my reply in the morning, when I've gotten over being mad about 'backspace' annihilating my post...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr. 2019 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by LesBerg LesBerg wrote:

I'll tyoe my reply in the morning, when I've gotten over being mad about 'backspace' annihilating my post...
Ho ho!!! I can relate to that! Some of my best rants were obliterated by hitting the wrong key...

...on second thought, maybe it was best it happened...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr. 2019 at 6:16pm
So this whole thing started as an "I'm not gonna half-ass this" transmission rebuild. My wife and I had talked about it at length decided to replace everything in the transmission that looked the slightest bit sketchy.

So that's what we did. Now I've been an R&R mechanic for decades. I've built a few engines and done my share of amateur-grade fabrication work with MIG welders, an oxy-acetylene torch, a grinder and a clapped-out drill press.

But I'm not a transmission guy.

"But how hard can it be?"

Yeah, that one has gotten me onto more trouble than you'd think. I've attempted exactly one automatic transmission. I will never crack open a black-magic-voodoo-box ever again. I'll leave that to the professionals.

To prep for the T90 build, I read a number of forum posts and how-tos, and even read the section in the service manual several times.

The truth is that it's a straight-forward build.

But you want to know what's not mentioned in any of those documents?

How to make sure your T90's case is good. The only thing I can recall that's mentioned is checking for cracks around the various holes.

No mention is made about checking the actual bore diameters in any way. They could be checked with calipers, or test-fitting a new part, or some other method. In fact, I'd venture to bet that you old-timers err, 'more experienced' gentlemen check exactly those things when you rebuild transmission or transfer case.

It also never occurred to me that NOS parts were available, much less priced similarly to new repo parts. So I did a lot of homework and learned how to recognize whether a part was from OMIX-ADA based on the part number alone - no need for the vendor to out the manufacturer.

So not seeing any other brand of parts for sale on the major sites, I diligently purchased all Crown parts for the build. And honestly, my biggest mistake was thinking that getting all the parts from the same manufacturer would mean that the parts should work together out of the box.

I'm not going to recap the issues I had with the parts, or my bungling of vetting the transmission case. They're just up from here for everyone to see.

But let me say plainly that I now hold Crown parts at the same level of contempt as OMIX.

The used parts I installed over the last couple of days were parts I passed on using when I originally rebuilt it. This particular synchro assembly has a little surface rust on the hub and collar where the two slide against each other.  Second gear was in similar condition. While the synchronizer engagement teeth and bushing were in good shape, there was a bit of surface rust on about a quarter of the gear teeth and I was worried about wearing through the surface hardening.

Go figure that the transmission now shifts far better than it did before.

In addition to the trans parts, I've purchased shifter boots and my speedometer from them. The OMIX shifter boots fell apart in under a year.

When I "rebuilt" the T90 I started this thread about, I installed spanking-new Crown boots on the trans and transfer case. Both have already torn out, and this time UV exposure has been ruled out as the top has been on the jeep the entire time.

And I've finally sorted out what the speedometer is doing.

When you first drive the jeep on any given day, it takes about 6-8 miles for the speedometer to 'warm up' and display your speed correctly. As long as you keep your speed under about 45-50 on the dial, it reads right.

But once you go faster, you run into it's first problem. Run the jeep up to 60mph (GPS) and the speedo gives a quasi-acceptable* 63mph reading.

After running at 60 for a couple miles, slow quickly to under 40, then speed back up to 60 on the GPS. The speedometer now has a different reading for 60mph. This reading will change every time you slow down and speed back up. This is the first issue.

The second issue is that once you've gone that fast the speedometer is no longer close to accurate at any speed. Where it started off reading correctly at 35mph, it will start showing readings between 31-40 at 35 on the gps. It does this at any speed after driving at high speed.

The third issue is that if you accelerate rapidly, the speedometer has to 'catch up' to how fast you're actually going. If I accelerate smartly to 45mph, I can actually be driving at that speed for a couple of seconds before the needle comes up to 45. This issue is also 'variable' in that sometimes it responds more quickly than others.

Similarly, coming down to 45 from 60, the needle won't always come all the way back down to 45. And it never stops in the same place.

My first inclination was that the issue was that the speedometer drive gear wasn't tight on the shaft of the transfer case output shaft. IIRC, it depends on the clamping force between the rear yoke and the bearing to lock it in place.

But if that was the case, then the speedometer could only ever read the correct speed or slower. The drive gear can't physically spin faster than the output shaft of the transfer case. Since it's a pretty even split on whether the speedometer is reading too fast or too slow, this can't be the issue.


Anyway, I wanted to share that this wasn't a case of 'not enough time or money to do it right the first time'.

I think it was more of a 'not enough knowledge or experience to do it right the first time' compounded by 'second-rate off-shore parts'.


*This is only 'quasi-acceptable because I'm running 31" tires - 2 Inches larger than stock. The speedometer should be reading slower than I'm actually going, not faster.


Edited by LesBerg - 06 Apr. 2019 at 6:28pm
1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
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3rd Infantry Bn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr. 2019 at 4:14am
When I drove home after the 2016 FCT, as I crawled up Trout Creek Pass at maybe 40 mph (in a rain/snow storm), my speedo slowly started showing that I was going faster and faster.  Eventually it showed that I was going over 60 (the numbers stop at 60 but the needle keeps going).  Then after a while it started coming back down to "reality".  It never did that before and not since.  All I can do is to not trust what the speedo says and hope I'm okay in the zones where Ol' Unreliable might actually exceed the speed limit.   
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