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Mike View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Jan. 2007 at 8:27am
Does anyone have paint numbers for Normandy Blue in a base coat, clear coat paint? I have an Imron number, but I am told it can't be crossed into a base coat, clear coat. Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan. 2007 at 7:48am
I got a number from a PPG dealer, its not specifically for a base coat but it may help you. I gave him DQE-10277-DAL, a old Ditzler code. He crossed it to 15740.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan. 2007 at 8:10am
Quote I gave him DQE-10277-DAL, a old Ditzler code. He crossed it to 15740.
That's the problem with old colors.  No one is reformulating them, since it's not cost-effective to do so.

This 10277-to-15740, is what PPG calls an "offset".  In plain english, it's called a "substitute".

15740 is "Kurli Blue".  It will be blue, and it may be acceptable to you, but it WILL NOT be the same color as Normandy Blue.  It will be slightly lighter or darker, and slightly different tint.

I have been through this issue w/Harvest Tan, PPG #20422, which has been "offset" to a newer number.

This is the difference:

    

If you want an ACCURATE Normandy Blue, you've got 3 choices:
  • Take a sample piece to a good paint dealer.  They'll scan it with their color-eye, and mix a close custom match.
  • Try Beachwoods paints.  They are supposed to be accurate, but I've never seen them, so can't confirm that.
  • Find a good auto-body paint man, who's willing to mix a match by eyeball.
Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russnj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan. 2007 at 9:20am
To add to Sean said,
This is what I got from beachwood.

Years ago the paint was mixed by color "mixer", who then matched the paint to his color chip. So depending upon the mix, lighting and his mood the color might not have exactly matched the chip that he had. Beachwood goes by the formula that was supposed to have been used to make the paint, thats why even there paint may not match the "original" color on your jeep, throw in 60+ years of oxidation, acid rain, etc. and there will always be problems with matching original color with new paints.

My 2 cents:
I think it is just one of those things where you have to make a choice as to what you like and how you want your jeep to look.

I think beachwood can send out samples of the paint, but I am not 100% sure on that.

Mine will be Luzon Red, so when I get to paint (at least 1 year away), I will let everyone know how Beachwoods paint looks to the original.

Russ


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan. 2007 at 10:36am

As usual things aren't as simple as they first appear. The fundimental question in my mind is: By what yardstick does one measure the authenticity of a resto paint job?

It wouldn't surprise me to find that the ORIGINAL colors varied quite a bit over time, due to different suppliers or ???.  Willys did not seem to be too concerned with consistency or quality control in general.  
 
Beachwood seems to be the defacto standard, from what I'm hearing. I'll probably buy from them, although hazmat fees and shipping will be very dear indeed. The other issue with their paint is, the shop I want to use isn't keen on it. (No reflection upon Beachwood, I believe their standards are quite high). The shop owner is reluctant to use a paint from a supplier that he doesn't know and trust, and, the paint they sell is very old technology. He tells me a modern acrylic enamel formula will outlast the old alkyld enamel by five times. He knows the end product will affect his reputation, which is stellar. This guy has been in the business for 40 years, and I take his opinion seriously.  He does very little restoration however, mostly collision repair.
 
So, if I go with the Beachwood paint, I can find another shop, or paint it myself. Between cars, trucks, and airplanes I have a couple dozen paint jobs under my belt, so I have the tools and skills (somewhat rusty) to do it if it comes to that. Awful job making the garage into a paint booth though. Upsets the wife when she has to park her Baby outside in the snow.
 
Or, I can trust my paint guru to work with his suppliers and come up with a solution. That will give me bragging rights around my neck of the woods, but won't bring much esteem elsewhere.
 
The "color eye" is an option as well, but from what I have seen and heard, I'm not impressed.
 
Russ, Beachwood did send me a sample of Wake Ivory back when we were trying to sort out what it was, I posted it then.  I can't say if they like to send samples routinely, but I can say they were very helpful in that case.  Luzon Red is one of my choices as well; one reason I don't like it is, reds fade quickly and no two mfgrs paints seem to fade the same. Fading isn't much of a problem with modern automotive finishes, but it sure was with the old enamels.
 
Thanks for all the input, very enlightening. I'll let you know what shakes out of the cobwebs.
 
CJAlaska
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan. 2007 at 3:03pm
Quote The fundimental question in my mind is: By what yardstick does one measure the authenticity of a resto paint job?
Personal choice, basically.

The "concours" crowd would insist on the same type of paint: nitrocellulose lacquer, alkyd enamel, etc, whatever was originally used.  I'm not one of them, but did want the correct color, and it was clear that modern "substitutes" didn't cut it.

I'm no paint expert, but I did learn a lot while chasing down an accurate match to Harvest Tan.  Much of what I heard is contrary to what's being said here now.

I worked with a friend who owned an auto-body shop for 30 years.  His bread and butter was collision repair, but he left that to the hired help, while he did all the old timer restorations.  He was the go-to guy for paint jobs around here.

Both he, and the PPG specialists in the "big city", told me the same thing.  Paint colors don't change just because they're old.  Oxidation & UV fade are surface phenomena, and a polish/buff will get rid of it, leaving the original color.

I had actual pieces of Harvest Tan sheet metal from 3 different CJ2As. 2 matched each other perfectly, the 3rd was slightly darker, but w/in the range of variablity.

I've also got paint chips from 3 different manufacturers: Sherwin-Williams, DuPont and Martin Senour.  While there are very minute differences between the 3, all of the actual samples fell w/in the range of the chips.

So I'm personally convinced that the colors of the 3 sample pieces are still quite accurate WRT fresh paint.

On variability:  paint is like many other products.  There is an allowable tolerance in shade and tint, as specified by the original car maker.

Car makers would use different suppliers at different times, depending on who could deliver the needed quantities w/in the needed time.  And these paints are delivered by the tens of thousands of gallons at a time, enough to do thousands of cars.  Usually delivered by railroad tank car!

On Beachwood:  they're certainly not a paint manufacturer, so they either contract with one of the major/minor manufacturers, or do their own in-house mixing using off-the-shelf primary colors.

If they're simply using what the major manufacturers are calling for today, then it's the wrong color.  If they've actually reformulated the correct colors in-house, then good for them, but they're keeping the formula secret.

Until I see a sample of their Harvest Tan, I'll have to reserve judgment.

On the color eye:  when I took the sample pieces & current PPG Harvest Tan substitute in to the PPG dealer, they said they could get MUCH closer using the color eye, but it would likely still not be 100%.

1st. match attempt was $40 + raw paint cost.  If it wasn't good enough, each successive hand-match attempt would cost $20 + raw paint cost.  I was looking at $100-150 just to get it matched, then STILL have to buy the 2 gallons of final mix.  That's why I chose to do it myself w/the help of my "go-to" auto body friend.

Sean



Edited by sean - 17 Jan. 2007 at 3:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryArf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan. 2007 at 3:54pm

Sean,

 your work on "harvest tan" is a testimonial to getting it right to the "nth" degree. Most will not try for your level of "correct". That doesn't mean someone out there wants a truely "Normandy Blue" correct. They will have to follow in your research steps to get it truely as close as humanly possable. I would think that the 3A would be the better reseach vehicle for this color.  your approch as far as exposure and UV rays was as close as can be done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan. 2007 at 4:07pm
Gary:
Quote That doesn't mean someone out there wants a truely "Normandy Blue" correct.
Yah, that's why it comes down to personal choice, and there's nothing wrong with that.  The Harvest Tan substitute was simply way too far off for me.

Who knows, the 15740 "Kurli Blue" may be very close to Normandy Blue.  It might even be right on!.  Only a comparison to real Normandy Blue will tell.

Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russnj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan. 2007 at 5:51pm
I would check out the Army Jeep Restoration video, Dan from Beachwood does over 20 minutes on how the old paints were mixed and used. Of course he only goes into the military paints in the video but most of what he covers applies to the paint used on the 2a's. I'll try to give them a call tomorrow to see if they actual mix the paint on site or what. I might just have to order some goodies too. Wink Just not ready for paint yet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlh714 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb. 2007 at 1:09pm
Mike,
   I'm getting ready to paint my 46 in Normandy Blue in Centari enamel. My Dupont automotive paint dealer got his old books out and was able to cross reference to the newer numbers until he got the paint code in Centari. If you're interested in this number I'll be glad to give it to you. Any Dupont dealer can work with the current number.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb. 2007 at 2:41pm
Don,
 
I'd like to have the current Dupont code for Normandy Blue.
 
Sam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJ3A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb. 2007 at 3:40am
I have to chime in on Beachwood paint real quick.  I purchased Normandy Blue and Wake Ivory from them two years ago.  I sprayed it on and it was Normandy Purple and Wake Yellow!!!!  I think their paint mixer was drunk that day.  Man, it really pissed me off because I had to reshoot everything.  In the end, they resent the proper colors, by now I have several layers of paint on mine.


Edited by CJ3A - 07 Feb. 2007 at 9:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb. 2007 at 8:26am

Beachwood gets their paint from a wholesale supplier that they claim "probably" was a supplier to Willys back in the day.  I have the name in notes if somebody wants it, (they don't sell retail) but can't remember it at the moment. 

 Maybe they still mix "by eye"Wacko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dlh714 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2007 at 4:04pm
Sam,

   The Dupont code for Normandy Blue in Centari enamel is BS448. They also gave me current codes for Luzon Red (RS496A) and Pasture Green (GS163A), in case those would be of any use to you. I got the Luzon Red number for my rims, since the stock wheel colors that went with Normandy Blue did not appeal to me at all. I saw a 46 2A with the Normandy Blue/Luzon Red combination and decided that looked much better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote (Name Blocked) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2007 at 4:31pm
I needing to get some Emerald green for my Jeep. Any help there would be appreciated.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2007 at 4:50pm
Thank you, Don. 
 
I realize that you did not get the code for the Sunset Red, I believe, that is the redish orange that was one of the standard wheel colors that came with Normandy Blue, but I am wondering if the Dupont dealer you worked with had the ability to produce that color.  It is hard to come by, but, in my case, it was the original color of my wheels so I'm interested in tracking down the code for that color.
 
With respect to that color, it is hard to judge by the eye what the color was on day one.  My first CJ2A was Harvest Tan with that color wheels.  Mine was 11 years old when I got it and the color then appeared to be roughly a medium to dark pumpkin color at the time, but it could have been badly faded even then.  I've never seen a color chip and have seen many variations of the color more recently on restored Jeeps.  From having seen the color back in the day, it is certainly more orange than red in my mind, but I do not know. 
Sam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2007 at 5:24pm
This is the best source of color chips that I know of....
 
 
Enter the different years , to get  other colors. There is no chip for Univ. Beige that I could find but there is a code, 40530
 
Alan, this site has the old Ditzler code for Emerald Green, 80364  I got a color swatch for Wake Ivory;
 
 
I believe that Wake Ivory is the proper color for wheels on a Emerald Green CJ2A; others may disagree. A PPG dealer (PPG owns Ditzler) may have a modern number that will be close enough for you. As you have probably figured out from this post, opinions vary and everybody has least one. Krylon "hunter green" is the closest off-the-shelf color to Emerald Green that I have found, but it is not as dark.
 
So far I have not found ANY code for Sunset Red, just references to "bright" and "pumpkin" , sorry. 
 
Jonesy
 
PS the info I have found would indicate that Sunset Red and Autumn Yellow are the correct wheel colors for a Normandy Blue tub. Also have seen black referenced. If someone has evidence of another "correct" (available from the factory) wheel color, please speak up!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russnj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb. 2007 at 1:43am
Here the page from the site with paint mixing percentages, I don't know of anyone who has used these before, but if anyone has please post.

http://www.thecj2apage.com/paint.html

Russ

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