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isp418 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 8:19am
I a new proud owner of a 1948 CJ 2A with I believe to have a 134 L motor. I have looked at a lot of pictures and all I have seen have showed a canister oil filter on passenger side of motor ant to the front. My problem is I seem to not have one located here, or any of the mounts or tubes that should be there, is there another place the filter should be located?
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mbullism View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 9:18am
Passenger front corner is the standard/typical location.  They are sometimes relocated to accomodate hydraulic pumps or other driven accessories that need belt pulley access.  I have to believe if you had one located elsewhere in the engine compartment you would have found it LOL

That said, the oil filters are "bypass" filters... they "feed" off the same block oil journal that feeds most everything else, such that not all the oil is directed through the filter on a constant basis.  If the hole in the fitting at the timing chain cover is too big they can actually steal oil from the front main crank bearing leading to isuues.  Worth using the advanced search feature here to bone up if you decide to put a filter set up in.  The filters are better than nothing, but not an oil filter in the modern sense.  It is not entirely unheard of to just not have one, opting instead to just change the oil more often depending on the conditions you drive in, etc.

Should you decide to install one they are fairly available used original, and most of the bigger parts suppliers have repro's... and are an easy install.

ETA:  Oh, and welcome to the forum, and congrats on your acquisition Thumbs Up... got any pictures? Wink


Edited by mbullism - 10 Sep. 2019 at 9:20am
1946 CJ2A #69750 - "Plowshare"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willyt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 9:18am
Oil Filters were an option. Mine did not come with one and the engine insides were nasty. Purchased required parts and installed. Doing frequent oil changes is cleaning up the inards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 10:12am
  Oil filters on the early CJ’s were not optional. Every jeep left the factory with one in place. A lot of them have been removed, left off, or disabled because of an old wive’s tale about them stealing oil from the front main and no. 1 rod bearing. This has been proven false. 
  The orifice that restricts flow thru the filter housing is not in the fitting brazed to the front cover, it is in the filter housing itself. 
  True, it’s not as efficient as a modern full-flow filter, but there’s very little about our jeeps that is as efficient as modern vehicles, and it’s definitely better than nothing. 
BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

  Oil filters on the early CJ’s were not optional. Every jeep left the factory with one in place. A lot of them have been removed, left off, or disabled because of an old wive’s tale about them stealing oil from the front main and no. 1 rod bearing. This has been proven false. 
  The orifice that restricts flow thru the filter housing is not in the fitting brazed to the front cover, it is in the filter housing itself. 
  True, it’s not as efficient as a modern full-flow filter, but there’s very little about our jeeps that is as efficient as modern vehicles, and it’s definitely better than nothing. 
BW

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

 ....or disabled because of an old wive’s tale about them stealing oil from the front main and no. 1 rod bearing. This has been proven false. 

Bruce W, real question to further my own education... have you got a link or otherwise for this?  I do a ton of reading here and on other flatty pages and I'd like to think Id've stumbled across it.  I recall a ton of stuff of folks brazing and redrilling.

Most importantly I don't want to be spreading incorrect information.  Serious thank you in advance-

Mike  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 64CJ5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 1:40pm
My 47 Cj2A came with out an oil filter or mount.  That was in 1964, so all I have are a few pictures and fading memories.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by mbullism mbullism wrote:

Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

 ....or disabled because of an old wive’s tale about them stealing oil from the front main and no. 1 rod bearing. This has been proven false. 

Bruce W, real question to further my own education... have you got a link or otherwise for this?  I do a ton of reading here and on other flatty pages and I'd like to think Id've stumbled across it.  I recall a ton of stuff of folks brazing and redrilling.

Most importantly I don't want to be spreading incorrect information.  Serious thank you in advance-

Mike  

Mike - my understanding, based upon what I've read in the service manual, is that the hole in the timing gear oil jet was originally made too large (0.07" if i remember correctly). This meant that there was not enough back pressure in the oil gallery, and not enough oil was forced to the front main bearing as a result, leasing to damage and failure of the bearing over time. The solution was to replace the jet with a 0.04" jet from the dealer, restricting flow to the timing gears, increasing oil gallery pressure, and forcing more oil to the front main bearing. Many folks have achieved this modification by brazing their 0.07" jets and redrilling them to 0.04".

So i think that the inaccuracy in your post does not relate to the possible oil starvation at the main bearing which was a real issue, but that the oil filter was the cause. It was the oversized jet. 

Edit to add: It should also be mentioned that more than a few folk confuse the oil return fitting brazed to the timing cover with the timing gear oil jet, which is screwed into the block. The size of the hole is important in the timing gear jet, for reasons explained above, the oil return hole size was never an issue and was never needing to be brazed up and redrilled.

I hope this helps to clarify.

Mike


Edited by JeepSaffer - 10 Sep. 2019 at 4:09pm
1948 CJ2A #204853 in South Africa
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 4:00pm
Mike,
  No, I don't have any "documentation" or a link to proof of what I said. I'm only going by what has been shown by those who tend to think about what they are told versus those who believe whatever they are told on the internet or the newspapers, and those who understand some of the laws of physics as pertaining to a hydraulic system, or the movements and effects of pressure on a fluid in a closed vessel.

  tPascal's law (also Pascal's principle[1][2][3] or the principle of transmission of fluid-pressure) is a principle in fluid mechanics given by Blaise Pascal that states that a pressure change at any point in a confined incompressible fluid is transmitted throughout the fluid such that the same change occurs everywhere.[4] The law was established by French mathematician Blaise Pascal [5] in 1647–48. (Underlining Mine)

If the filter were to steal oil pressure from the front main bearing, it would steal from the entire system, including the gauge. It could not affect the front of the crank only. The same goes for the oiling jet for the timing gears, where the discussion of brazing and re-drilling is usually centered.

BW


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by JeepSaffer JeepSaffer wrote:

So i think that the inaccuracy in your post does not relate to the possible oil starvation at the main bearing which was a real issue, but that the oil filter was the cause. It was the oversized jet. 

Setting aside BW's subsequent reply above for the moment and allowing for my possible continuing ignorance, your description of your understanding mirrors mine in that the original hole was too large.  My recommendation to research the differing sizes was not intended to infer that the oil filter was the cause, per se, but to simply give a heads up to the condition when introducing an oil filter into a system where there previously was not one (or at least had not been one for some time).

Now I have to go wrap my head around pascals, lol Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 4:20pm
Hmmmm..... you're only partially correct Bruce. Pascal's law applies to a CONFINED fluid, meaning the fluid can't flow anywhere. That's not the case in the oiling system of an engine, where oil is required to flow to do its job. 

Pressure will be lost due to friction along the flow path, meaning you will measure more pressure closer to the pump and less pressure further from the pump. And, right next to a big hole, you will measure even less pressure. So, too big a hole in the timing gear jet will mean not enough pressure at the front bearings, even if there is enough pressure at the rear bearings. 

Make sense? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by mbullism mbullism wrote:

Originally posted by JeepSaffer JeepSaffer wrote:

So i think that the inaccuracy in your post does not relate to the possible oil starvation at the main bearing which was a real issue, but that the oil filter was the cause. It was the oversized jet. 

.....your description of your understanding mirrors mine in that the original hole was too large.

The only problem is that in your original post you reference "the hole in the fitting in the timing cover". It was never this hole that was too big. It was the hole in the timing gear oil jet. They are different holes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 5:22pm
I haven't wrapped my noodle around this Pascal thing entirely, but initial thoughts are equal pressure everywhere in a system holds in a closed system, like the hydraulics in my tractor.  The problem is the oiling system has outlets.  


ETA: I think I'm more in line with JeepSaffer above, in that as soon as a fluid "exits" a system, the area confining it goes to infinity and pressure goes to zero.  Increase the area and drop the pressure.  Adding another outlet (the filter) to the front bearing feed is effectively increasing the area on that trunk...









Edited by mbullism - 10 Sep. 2019 at 5:33pm
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2016 JK unlimited (Hers)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by JeepSaffer JeepSaffer wrote:

The only problem is that in your original post you reference "the hole in the fitting in the timing cover". It was never this hole that was too big. It was the hole in the timing gear oil jet. They are different holes. 

That IS (was) a misunderstanding on my part I guess, Mike... It was my understanding the oil jet was part of this fitting so as to spray oil on the gears on it's way back to draining into the pan.  A little time with my mechanics manual tonight, perhaps LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by JeepSaffer JeepSaffer wrote:

Hmmmm..... you're only partially correct Bruce. Pascal's law applies to a CONFINED fluid, meaning the fluid can't flow anywhere. That's not the case in the oiling system of an engine, where oil is required to flow to do its job. 

Pressure will be lost due to friction along the flow path, meaning you will measure more pressure closer to the pump and less pressure further from the pump. And, right next to a big hole, you will measure even less pressure. So, too big a hole in the timing gear jet will mean not enough pressure at the front bearings, even if there is enough pressure at the rear bearings. 

Make sense? 

The fluid (oil) IS confined, if it were not, there would be NO pressure. The pump fills the container as fast as it can leak out. It's capable of filling it faster than it leaks out, that's what creates pressure.
  If you can measure the difference in oil pressure, with a normal gauge, between the normal gauge connection point and the point at which the filter connects, as Pop says, "I'll eat my hat". I agree there is friction loss, but I think it is very minimal in this case. If there is enough leakage at the front of the oil galley to starve the front main bearing, you will see it on the gauge, and all through the system.
  You must be right though, as the Willys-Overland engineers thought that there was good reason to reduce the size of the oil jet orifice. But they never recommended removing or blocking or even restricting the oil filter, which was what the OP's question was about.  BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJ2atlas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 10:18pm
I agree with Bruce that there would be a visible pressure drop before any bearing damage occurred,but the bypass filter does technically rob oil pressure away from the system and dumps it through the timing cover back into the pan. The pump is of course still able to maintain good pressure, but they added in another (leak) with the timing gear oil jet. I'm guessing the Willys engineers were actually seeing too much of a pressure drop so they made the oil jet hole smaller to bring the pressure back up where should be.
Just my 2 cents
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJ2atlas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 10:40pm
On the same note I would also make a guess that the elimination of the oil filter could often have simply been a cheap way to get the oil pressure back up a little when it started to drop because of worn bearings, and/or a weak oil pump. Today's farmer would dump in some Lucas!

Edited by CJ2atlas - 10 Sep. 2019 at 10:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep. 2019 at 11:00pm
Welcome to the page, isp418!  Regarding Pascal's Law, a hydraulic brake system wouldn't work without it.
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