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sean View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb. 2007 at 5:44pm
Photos of Marks "Frantz" toilet paper adapter (click 'em to enlarge):

        

        

        

        

    

Sean


Edited by sean - 12 Feb. 2007 at 4:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb. 2007 at 6:14pm
That is spectacular!  I think it is a perfect fit for these fairly simple vehicles.
So, if you're out in the woods down to your last roll, who would give it up for the Jeep?LOL

Edited by samcj2a - 09 Feb. 2007 at 6:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westforkboyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb. 2007 at 8:38am
So that entire TP canister slides into the stock filter can? I see a hole in the lid of the TP can but no other hole. Looks pretty neat but I don't get how it works. You've said you have to "change the roll more often", how often? This seems silly but do you use just single ply like for a septic system? People back then were much more inventive even on the engineering and manufacturing end. When were these marketed? Were there  different sizes for other applications used other than for the Willys? It seems somewhat Rube Goldbergish when standard filters are so readily available.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb. 2007 at 1:09pm
Allen:
Quote So that entire TP canister slides into the stock filter can?
Yep.  It's a canister-within-a-canister.Smile

Quote Looks pretty neat but I don't get how it works.
Oil flows into the stock canister, up & around the TP canister, until it overflows the top of the TP canister.

Then flows down through the TP lengthwise, comes out the bottom of the TP, then up the central tube of the TP canister, and out the restirctor hole in the stock canister stand-pipe.

Quote You've said you have to "change the roll more often", how often?
How long is a rope? Wink  It depends entirely on the conditions you operate in.  Bottom line, when the TP plugs up, and oil no longer flows through, change it.

Quote This seems silly but do you use just single ply
You certainly DON'T use the 2-ply "quilted" type, which collapse under pressure.

Quote When were these marketed? Were there  different sizes for other applications used other than for the Willys?
1960 (possibly earlier) to present.  "Back then" many vehicles still had bypass oil systems where these adapters simply dropped into the stock canister.  But ANY vehicle w/a spin-on, can also have a by-pass added, so there were (and still are) many universal by-pass systems for after market installation.

Quote It seems somewhat Rube Goldbergish when standard filters are so readily available.
Depends on what you consider a "standard" filter?

Even today, by-pass systems are standard on virtually all heavy equipment: over-the-road big rigs, construction equipment, farm machinery, etc., anything that operates in a dirty environment, or has to run for a long time between overhauls.  These folks wouldn't dream of operating without the by-pass filter, for one reason:
  • A good by-pass system is VASTLY superior to a full-flow in filtration ability.
Modern by-pass systems can be added to most any vehicle in production.  They use a purpose made cellulose filter element.  TP was simply the first alternative "back then" for passenger cars.

I've put by-pass systems on every vehicle I've owned since 1982.  For vehicles I care about, I would never do without one again.

Unfortunately, even though our little Go-Devil engines use a by-pass system, replacement filter elements are still pleated paper, and don't filter any better than a full-flow type.

Sean


Edited by sean - 10 Feb. 2007 at 1:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westforkboyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb. 2007 at 1:27pm
I'll have to read this a little closer. I don't understand the difference between full-flow and bypass systems. I had the unit turned around. The cap end with the hole goes down? Is the groove on the open end lip for a o-ring then? then the regular canister lid seals around that o-ring and the flat seal then seals the canister? The o-ring then just seals on the stock lid? Jeesh I'm dense.
 
No wait! I read your "flow chart" again. No seal on inner can. Any reason for that groove other that strength?


Edited by westforkboyd - 10 Feb. 2007 at 1:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb. 2007 at 1:31pm

Mark--

As a matter of fact I DO have some non-technical knowledge about the Franz oil filter.
 
I bought one from the inventor himself, as I recall, in about 1952 or 3.  I put it on several vehicles--a 1952 Ford, a 1954 rambler, a 1957 Rambler, and a 1960 318 cu in Dodge.  On each, I followed Mr. Franz's suggestion and did not start  using it until my oil was dark and grungy.  Within a tank of gas or so, the oil was completely cleared up and stayed that--in those days they even recommended that you'd never have to change oil again, which I didn't.  The Ford I traded off at about 80K, the ramblers at about 80-90K and the Dodge, the same.  None ever developed oil burning or bearing problems, and always had "clean" oil.  The Dodge did, however take to building up little "slugs" of carbon that hung up in the weep holes of the heads, and forced oil down the valve rods.  What a smoker!  I fixed the clogging problem, and that was that.  The "clean" oil changed color, as well.  Starting with the greenish Quaker State hues of most oils of that era, you'd end up with "clean" oil that was quite rosy/golden in color.  I do not recall any detergent/non detergent, multi grade issues at the time because at that time, oil was oil was oil was oil.  I don't thing non-detergent was available then, and multi-grade didn't come into widespread use till the 60's, I think.
 
I still have the TP cannister, and all the parts., including the Buick bypass outer cannister which I got at the city dump.  Just have never reinstalled it.
 
Sean was correct however--it was "fussy" about the type of TP.  NEVER use two or three ply "soft-as-a-baby's-cheeks, Franz told me.  Always use single ply somwhat dense paper--like the stuff the Army used to buy.  Still, the pressure would compress that roll up into the inner cannister about 1/3 of its length since the oil was pressured through the bottom end of the roll and out the top, not through it from outside to inside.  And was it BLACK!  Current TP marketing which reduces the diameter of the roll and fluffs things with air, probably would give a user the fits, however.  I don't even know whether you can buy the "old fashioned" one cut above the Ward's catalogue TP anymore.  Seems we have all gotten "soft."
 
As I recall, Franz recommended that if your car had a full flow screw-on filter, such as my 60 dodge, just leave that filter on, and tap the bypass TP unit into the pressure gallery for pressure, and into a valve cover for the outlet.  I mounted mine on the inner fender and used flex lines, which I still have, for connections. 
 
The only "down side" of the unit was that they recommended very frequent changes of filters--every 1K as I recall--in order to keep things open and moving.  Anyone want pictures of one--or want one to have of their very own, PM me.  I can send you a complete unit, w/o the correctTP, of course. because I have gone "soft."
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb. 2007 at 1:37pm
Allen:

I think a few diagrams will work better than trying to describe it verbally.  I'll draw something up in a bit.

Quote The cap end with the hole goes down?
Yep.

Quote Is the groove on the open end lip for a o-ring then?
No, that's for the wire retainer ring, which simply holds the TP, & filter screens, in place w/in the TP canister.

The top of the TP canister is open, for oil to flow into & through it.  The only seal is the standard caps flat rubber ring.

Sean


Edited by sean - 10 Feb. 2007 at 1:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb. 2007 at 3:26pm
I'm guessing that mine was an early model since I never did have the second screen for the bottom.  Neither did I have the snap ring to hold the roll in place temporarily while you installed it [this must have been for the guys who pulled too many sheets off for salvage!]
 
Since the roll compresses up into the inner cannister, the pressure must be upwards thru the plys of paper rather than outer to inner core.  With that paper being compressed against the sides nothing could move in a horizontal direction.  Since I have "lost" my old Buick outer shell, I cant look, but I am a little loss to describe how the oil gets from the upper end of the roll and into the center tube for return to the crankcase.  It looks to me as if the oil actually went round and round, with only some of it bleeding off each pass, so that filtration occurred over several passes rather than just the first one.  Which is to say, I guess, that much more oil was trying to come into this thing than it would let out thru the restricted return hole.  I suppose the pressure "relief" valving was down at the oil pump.  Is this why it's called by-pass system?  Most of the oil bypasses returning to the CC a few times before finally getting its turn.
 
Odd, isn't it that compared to "bypass", "full flow" sounds much better.  But is it?  Sean's discussion leads me to believe there may be good reasons to stick with a by pass system--the big guys sure seem to do it.
Would this be the first time in automotive history that questionable engineering was sold by the marketing department as a major breakthrough?  How may examples of this can we come up with?  Let's see--How about Crosley's plated {bronze?} sheet metal [tin can?]cylinders on it's early engines.  Major breakthrough in reducing engine weight!  I recall an ad showing Mr. Crosley, himself, holding one of his "new revolutionary engines" at arm's length, as easily as most folks would hold a puppy.  What did it weigh?  was it 60 pounds or so?  It ran afoul of cylinder warpage due to lack of mass to resist heat and other stresses.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb. 2007 at 8:51pm
Crude diagrams, but they'll do better than words.

Full-flow system:
  • Filter is in-line with the pump feed
  • ALL the oil passes through the filter ALL of the time
    

By-pass system (AKA "partial-flow"):
  • Filter feed can tap into any pressurized point of the gallery
  • Some oil diverts to filter, while most of it goes to the engine
    

There are pros & cons to both systems, but some ramifications are easy to see.

Full-flow:
  • All oil is filtered before going to the engine
  • By it's nature, it has to be low restriction, to allow sufficient flow to the engine.
  • Low restriction means big filter pores, typically around 40 microns.  There are newer, expensive, synthetic filters that claim 20 micron capability.
By-pass:
  • Only some of the oil is filtered. Somewhere around 5% gets filtered, the rest goes to the engine unfiltered.
  • Restriction is not an issue.
  • GOOD filters have typical pore sizes of less than 1 micron.
Argument is given that a bypass filter is bad because it doesn't filter all of the oil.  That's wrong.  It DOES filter all of the oil, just not as quickly as a full flow:
  • Full-flow filters ALL the oil ALL the time.
  • By-pass filters SOME of the oil ALL of the time, and ALL of the oil SOME of the time.
A typical american V-8 circulates about 10 quarts per minute at speed, so the average 5 quart system is full-flow filtered w/in 30 seconds.  A 5% by pass system will take 10 minutes to do the same job, but eventually ALL the oil does get filtered.

OTOH, a full-flow filter is a compromise.  It leaves LOTS of big particles circulating.  A by-pass filter is better by orders of magnitude.

Contrary to popular belief, the main reason for suggested oil change intervals is not because the oil is worn out, but because it's dirty!  A by-pass will keep it cleaner, longer, and put less wear & tear on engine parts.

But, if you happen to get big hunks of crud into the oil pan somehow, and it gets sucked up into the pickup float, the odds are it will get to the bearings first, before being filtered.  A good reason to keep the floating pickup.

The best filtration will have both types.  Unfortunately, it would take some doing to tap a full-flow into an L-134 engine.

Some diagrams of the L-134 bypass canister workings.

First an empty canister (no filter element):
  • Canister is sealed & pressurized.
  • Oil flows in from high on the outer perimeter, and fills the canister
  • Then exits via the restrictor hole, down the center stand pipe.
    

With the typical disposable element:
  • Element is typically pleated paper (orange shading)
  • Oil flows through the sides of the element to the middle
  • Then out the restrictor hole.
    

With the Franz TP adapter.  The Franz TP canister is shaded green.
  • Oil flows into the large open end of the TP canister.
  • Then up lengthwise through the TP, out the other end.
  • Then through the large diameter center pipe of the TP adapter, to the restrictor hole.
    

Both filters need seals around the stand-pipe.  Both are are held down by the spring under the lid.

A pleated paper element is a "surface" filter.  The TP roll (or other solid by-pass element) is a "depth" filter.

Sean




Edited by sean - 04 July 2011 at 1:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb. 2007 at 10:31am
Good diagrams sean--
 
except
 
you are correct in thinking that you might have the oil flowing the wrong way thru the TP.  It has to come up thru the bottom of the roll and leach out around the top and get into the center cylinder, thence down the stand-pipe.  You will note that in the pictures you posted earlier that the dirty roll was compressed up into the cannister by the resistance to pressure.  Also, if you think of it, there is no way that unfiltered oil could get ito the top side of the roll.  It is sealed off by the top pressure spring and the bottom bushing, and the pressure against both the cannister side and the tube side that occurs as the roll is compressed.   Also, pressure on the top of the roll would "blow" it right out the bottom of the cannister because the flange on the inner tube would not be sufficient to  hold in there.  It must be held in place by the top of the cannister. 
 
you will see this when my package arrives.  It is complete, no missing parts, despite the pictures' showing that that snap ring and a additional bottom [presumably] screen to keep the paper from compacting and shutting off the flow of oil.  These must have been later modifications [or earlier, for that matter]
 
I was very impressed with your discussion of the two types of oil filters.  Wow--that 20 micron v 1 micron is some difference.  On the other hand, so is all the oil v 5% at any given time.  Life is a trade off, I guess, the longer you live the more likely you are to die.  Take your pick, there is no such thing as a free lunch.  Only a free spirit.
 
I remember asking Franz him why he did not market thru Sears or Wards, and he was almost insulted, replying "if I marketed thru them, then they would end up demanding cost-controlling changes in manunfacturing of the product, and I would NEVER agree compromise the quality I have built into it."  Was good enough answer for me!
 
 I wonder how many of these Franz filters are still out there?  Full flow technology might have done them in.  Not that makes a difference, but I think I paid somewhere between 10 and 20 bucks for it from the "factory" which was in a barn on a former farmstead near Modesto, California.  At the time gas was 25-30 cents a gallon, oil 25 cents a quart, and filters a buck, maybe.  So I guess it was a "big" investment at the time, which took quite a few foregone oil changes to recoup.  I recall that "never change oil again" was a big marketing claim, and I actually never did in over 200 thousand miles of driving several cars, every one of which was used when I got it.  I always took it off before trading my "old one" in, and no one ever knew the questionable pedigree of the trade-in.  BTW I NEVER traded one in because of oil consumption, bearing issues, or the like, and all had 80+K on them when I traded them in.  Style and features and size and for the Ramblers, gas mileage, plus I always got bored with a car after a few years, was the reason I changed, never because I "had" to have a new one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westforkboyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb. 2007 at 1:27pm
Sean
 
Thank you for taking the time to give  that primer on oil filters and systems!!! Like going back to school.  You answered all my questios. Even the dumb ones.Embarrassed
 
Glad to dee you an Del got together on that franz.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westforkwillys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2007 at 11:42am
Del
With all due respect "you certainly have more knowledge and expertise on these older engines than I do"SmileSmile, but I have been always told that even though the oil may not look dirty you still need to change it because the oil will actually break down and loose viscosity even though it reatains a like new appearance.  I have a '62 Oliver 880 tractor that runs on LP and that fuel runs so clean that the oil NEVER looks dirty no matter how many hours I were to put on it  between changes.  I change it every 500 hours and the oil looks just like when you put it in but it still has gone through a break down period so I change it anyway, heck oil is cheap.  If I am wrong someone please correct me I've never claimed I was the sharpest knife in the drawer but I've been  told since I was a young boy "started life in 1966 ya'll can do the math" change yer oil!!
Just one hillbillys opinion.
Jeff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2007 at 1:18pm
Del:
Quote you are correct in thinking that you might have the oil flowing the wrong way thru the TP
I defer to your description.  Looks like Marks filter was installed that way too, considering the corroded areas, which I didn't pay attention to before.

However, I don't think the Frantz canister cares which way it's oriented..  As long as there's pressure, oil will flow through it.  Just a matter of how it was designed to mechanically fit the outer canister.

I agree w/Jeff though.  Despite being "clean", all oils will eventually degrade.  They'll break down from heat, get diluted by blow-by, pick up contaminants from the air (moisture, acids, etc.), and carry all the normal wear metal particles.

A good filter will greatly extend the change interval, but it still needs to be done occasionally.

Along with using by-pass filters, rather than change oil at regular intervals, I have it analyzed at regular intervals.  When the analysis shows elevated levels of anything important, I change oil & filters.  I typically get 30-35K between changes.

Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2007 at 1:23pm
Sean, we know you're a Jeep and automotive guru, and you have conquered computers, but now it comes out that you are a chemist.  Okay, kidding aside, how do you do the analysis?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westforkwillys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2007 at 1:49pm
Yea Sean, throw this dog a bone.  How does one goe about "analyzing" your oil??Confused  I know in my chemistry lab "aka.  the corn crib"LOL the extent of my analysis is getting a few drops of the "used" oil between  my fingers and rubbing them together, after the oil starts to break down you can actually feel the difference between new and used oil even though the oil still has a clean appearance to the eye.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russnj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2007 at 1:49pm
Ok, I found some of NOS TP from the 40's on ebay!
If the guy adds willys jeep to the ad who knows where the price will go!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110089142665

Russ

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2007 at 1:58pm
Whooops Jeff! 
 
I know nothing at all--except maybe how to ask questions and describe my personal experiences, which may or may not be dependable bases upon which to generalize.  I change the oil on my more recent cars every 5 K miles or so, twice a year, fall and spring usually, unless I forget.  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  Did I do the Subaru last fall.
 
I'm thinking the thousand or so miles a year I put on the jeep will not be noticed by me in terms of 1 micron or 20 micron oil filtering, so I'm happy to see Sean get a new piece of technical stuff to work with.
 
I tend to agree with  you on the matter that "dirty" is not the only factor.  What about "invisible" contaminants, of which there must be many?  Still and all, I keep an open mind on the claims that "oil does not wear out, it just becomes contaminated"  I have heard of that "testing" that Sean uses, but I've never been aware that it is something available to run of the mill consumers.  If his 30-35K interval based on testing is "safe" then my not having had adverse outcomes in going 50 or 60 in my former life does not seem too far fetched.
 
If you want to get really confused between marketing and reality, just let the synthetic oil guys into this discussion.  I have an AMZOIL report that stops just short of alleging that oil changes, and even vicsocity levels are more attuned to selling oil and meeting "friction" standards to the EPA and fleet-mileage ratings than they are to anything that actually goes on inside  your engine.  The latter observation certainly explains why on a 20XX Ford, for example, the owner's manual specifies 10-30, and the next year, it specifies 5-30.  Nothing else changed except the slight reduction in friction at low temps, which multiplied by the total units produced, helped the FMC to meet EPA mandated "fleet" standards.
 
As in most things--there's less here than meets the eye!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2007 at 2:03pm
Hold on there, Russ--
 
That stuff does not appear "manly" enough for a Frantz.  Read the fine print in our postings--it has to be single ply and have some "body" to it.  None of that soft, soggy stuff. 
 
Maybe it's not too late for you to withdraw your bid.
 
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