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Oil Pressure and Temp Question

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jgodfrey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 May 2022 at 9:54pm
My engine is a fresh rebuild.  I've been taking short trips here and there.  Nothing more than 5-10 miles at a time. 

Today was the first day it was 70 degrees and I drove it about 25 miles, mostly at 35-40 mph. I have 238 miles on it and it's doing a couple strange things. 

The temp started climbing, stayed at 180, then started slowly creeping up to 200. Sometimes edging up to 210. The oil pressure at 40 mph was about 30, but when I slow down it drops to 20. And when I stop it goes to zero. That worried me but the temp didn't climb above 210 even when the oil pressure was at zero sitting at a stop light. 

Before I put the body on I was running the engine for 15-20 at a time a couple times a week.  I checked the video of those runs and at idle (which was high until it got tuned) it was at about 45.

I'm definitely not an engine guy, but I'm worried.  Why the change in oil pressure and temp? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote General Eisenhower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2022 at 10:48pm
Well in my experience the first thing I check is that the gauges are both working and accurate. I've had several temperature gauges read in accurate or just not work right out of the box... in a row, really ashame. 

I've had an oil guage brand new (probably omix go figure) and it read 20 lbs cold and at about 40 miles per hour, and when I stopped it would go to zero. Testing on an air compressor revealed it was full of crap, so I put on an original i had just cleaned up and tested. My oil pressure is actually about 40 lbs cold and 20 warm at idle.

Concerning your temperature, I'm sure others will have ideas, but is your system holding pressure and did you install the thermostat & housing properly? I'm only asking because sometimes things get mixed up, it happens


Edited by General Eisenhower - 06 May 2022 at 10:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2022 at 11:05pm
Thanks. They are new gouges from Walck's. They came in a generic white box, so they could be anything.

It's odd that it goes up to 40, then down to zero. Scary is putting it lightly. It seems to run fine while it's doing that, but does idle a bit rougher when the temp is reporting 200 or so.

The engine builder installed the thermostat but it definitely opens. You can watch it climb to 180, then drop slightly when it opens. Today being the longest drive so far, on the warmest day really seemed to make it warmer than I thought it should be.

Could it be a tight engine? I'm running Rotella 15w40 (I think that's the weight) with a bottle of Moly.

Oil levels haven't changed and the oil seems clean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2022 at 11:30pm
If you can, try some gauges that are known to work properly. Maybe you could borrow one from someone; or get some name brand units to try ( Stewart Warner, AutoMeter, etc.). Or maybe confirm with an infrared temp device.

I have a Walck's no-name temp gauge in one of my jeeps that I have seen the needle go past the numbers like it's taking a second lap around, but the engine didn't boil over. That tells me that at normal operating temps it might be kinda close, but at the upper range may be way off. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2022 at 11:46pm
I don't have any spare gauges. I'm not opposed to buying a spare or a tester, but the fluctuations are very strange.  Is there a source for gauges that aren't green or Omix Ada?

Edited by jgodfrey - 06 May 2022 at 11:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2022 at 11:49pm
1947 CJ2A 106327, Engine J109205, Tub 97077. Luzon Red

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote General Eisenhower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2022 at 12:01am
Originally posted by jgodfrey jgodfrey wrote:

I don't have any spare gauges. I'm not opposed to buying a spare or a tester, but the fluctuations are very strange.  Is there a source for gauges that aren't green or Omix Ada?

I tested my oil gauge with an air compressor, if you have a decent regulator on the air line, it's a simple enough test.
For the temp gauge, I boil water with a digital thermometer in it and just dip the lead in without and as it should be around the same temp 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2022 at 12:45am
I will test them using your methods. Thanks.

If the pressure was actually zero at idle, wouldn't the temp skyrocket and overheat in a few seconds?  Is 200-210 (if that's accurate) too high?

I saw a couple other posts on this subject and it seems the common denominator is the flood of cheap gauges. Most of the vendors seem to have the exact same crap. Some admit it's Omix and others say Preferred Vendor, but you can tell by the back plate and other similarities that they are all the same.

I have no issues painting the bezels if I get a reliable gage, but MB and GPW faces are different, aren't they?

Are the ones from Pete Debella or Joe's Motorpool high quality?


Edited by jgodfrey - 07 May 2022 at 12:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2022 at 2:24am
Unless you have to have something that looks exactly like the stock original I strongly suggest you throw any of the reproduction gauges in the trash and buy Stewart Warner Deluxe series gauges both Water and Oil should be mechanical.



You can scuff up the bezels and paint them black to match stock. I have used SW gauges in a dozen different cars and pickups over the years and I have driven maybe 100 Buses and Heavy trucks that use SW gauges over the years and I can't think of maybe once or twice having to replace a defective gauge.

Summit Racing is a good place to buy on line great prices super fast shipping with multiple warehouses around the country.

A note the water temp gauge comes with different length capillaries (sending units) be sure you get the length you need.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2022 at 2:22pm
I have the Joe's temp gauge. I think it is the best and most authentic one out there. 

I would take her over to your engine guy's shop. Hopefully, there is not some effect from your cranking her with the cylinders washed. He may not have the pressure relief valve in correctly or missed a gallery plug. Maybe it is just the gauge, but let him test confirm it.

As far as the temp, if not the gauge, what is the condition of your cooling system? Do you have the felt around the radiator and a shroud? I fought cooling issues for months and did everything possible with no good outcome. I finally solved it with an Omix aluminum radiator.   

Micah
1947 CJ2A 106327, Engine J109205, Tub 97077. Luzon Red

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2022 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

I have the Joe's temp gauge. I think it is the best and most authentic one out there. 

I would take her over to your engine guy's shop. Hopefully, there is not some effect from your cranking her with the cylinders washed. He may not have the pressure relief valve in correctly or missed a gallery plug. Maybe it is just the gauge, but let him test confirm it.

As far as the temp, if not the gauge, what is the condition of your cooling system? Do you have the felt around the radiator and a shroud? I fought cooling issues for months and did everything possible with no good outcome. I finally solved it with an Omix aluminum radiator.   

Micah
As usual, very good thoughts and points. I couldn't seem to find the US site for Joe's Motorpool. It wouldn't seem to stick and every time I tried to select something it sent me back to the UK. I also looked at the Stewart Warner gauges, but since my speedo is in place and working well, and the odometer is running, I didn't want to replace it to match the style of those gauges. A small detail, I know, but I ended up going with a set of gauges from Pete Debella. So those will be here next week.

As far as the cooling system, here's the history. I was using the original radiator but chased a small leak for a month, before the body arrived. It went back and forth to the radiator shop twice (an hour each direction) and still dripped. So I bought a new one from Walck's.  I ran water through it for 10 minutes solid before I installed it. No leaks at all, and yes I have felt around it, as well as the shroud that cane with it, but not the shroud extension. A side note - I used to run this Jeep hard in the middle of the woods all summer long.  Through mud holes and long slow trails in low range.  It never once overheated and didn't even have the short shroud.  Someone before me had cut it off.  

But, this might be something.  I pulled the cap and while the coolant looks normal, I keep getting a black sludge around the cap.  I wipe it off and it comes.back. Any thoughts on what that could be from? As you know, it was a fresh rebuild but I did wash the cylinders of oil when I flooded it. I cranked a few times but it never ran during that issue. When I took it to the shop that rebuilt it he shot oil down the cylinders and manually turned  it over until it was smooth again. Then he flushed it and put in new oil.  He said there wasn't any apparent damage.

The fluctuations in temp are very odd. But nothing changes in performance, it doesn't burn oil, and the oil is clean.  The new gauges will be here this week, so I'll paint the bezels and install them. Then I'll see.if they help. I know they are better quality though. The ones I have are pretty cheap feeling, and the needles constantly bounce.

Just curious of the tests for the cooling system. How would they know if they missed a galley plug? And how would they address that.  Remember, this shop gets pretty defensive if you question their work.


Edited by jgodfrey - 08 May 2022 at 10:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2022 at 10:54pm
That temp gauge from Pete looks a lot like Joe's. 

Test the black sludge with a magnet. It may be converted rust coming out after the rebuild. 

Is your fan facing the correct way?

I would suggest flushing out your block, especially since you are seeing crud. My favorite way is to use a pvc 1/2" male pipe to female garden hose. It screws into where the sending unit goes. Perfect time since you will have it out. Just connect the garden hose. Home Depot sells them in the sprinkler section.

Low oil pressure could be a symptom of a missing or not fully seated plug. If it persists with your new gauge, I certainly would be discussing it with your builder.

Micah
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https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2022 at 11:58pm
Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

That temp gauge from Pete looks a lot like Joe's. 

Test the black sludge with a magnet. It may be converted rust coming out after the rebuild. 

Is your fan facing the correct way?

I would suggest flushing out your block, especially since you are seeing crud. My favorite way is to use a pvc 1/2" male pipe to female garden hose. It screws into where the sending unit goes. Perfect time since you will have it out. Just connect the garden hose. Home Depot sells them in the sprinkler section.

Low oil pressure could be a symptom of a missing or not fully seated plug. If it persists with your new gauge, I certainly would be discussing it with your builder.

Micah

Those are great ideas. I'll do each of them, in order. What do I flush it with?  Is there a solution, or just water?  And, I did those 30 years ago when it had the heater in it. (I am rebuilding the original driver's side heater, so none of the hoses are in yet) using an in-line garden hose fitting on the heater hose. I believe I just turned on the water and left the petcock open on the bottom of the radiator. Is that what you mean?

Or are we talking about draining it, filling it with a special solution., draining it, then rinse and repeat until it's clean?

P.S. - Here's a picture of the fan. I believe it's on right. When I was testing air flow after installing the new radiator it pulled a towel tight against the front of the radiator at idle.



Thanks Micah


Edited by jgodfrey - 09 May 2022 at 12:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2022 at 2:45am
With the towel test, the fan is fine. Even if one were to put the fan on "backwards" it will still pull air through the radiator in the same direction. Just not as efficiently.

Now if the fan is out of a stationary engine like a welder, or generator, the fan often pushes air from the engine through the radiator & out the "front" of the assembly. Again, even if installed "backwards" the fan will still push air out the "front". It cools fine. However, when installed in a vehicle, it fights the road wind. Not good. Heck if the rig is not driven slowly, IME, there is no need for a fan. Yet, it is a Jeep, you will drive it slowly. 

When I flush a radiator, I install a "flushing fluid", then I drive the rig for 20-30 minutes to get it good & warm. I then drain that. If it comes out very filthy, I rinse & repeat. If it drains out fairly clean, I rinse it twice with the engine running & going down the road. Then it gets drained & refilled with the appropriate mixture of anti-freeze. At this point a leak check is cheap insurance.

This is not the only way to do it. I just like to get the "flushing fluid" & especially the rinse water through out the entire water jacket. 

I have not used a sock, or the ready made filter, in the upper radiator hose but that makes sense to me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 48willys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 9:11am
I was thinking if your gauge tests to be accurate it may be good to verify the shop replaced the oil pump. There’s a lot of shops that will put the old oil pump back on, unless there’s a obvious problem. If the cylinder walls are not getting adequate lubricant it could cause the overheating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote General Eisenhower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 11:24am
With your engine being rebuilt I wouldnt think flushing would be necessary, but last time I did it, I filled with water and CLR and it helped alot after running at high idle, draining and filling again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2022 at 3:37pm
I agree that a newly rebuilt engine shouldn't need that.  Especially since it's a huge pain in the arse.

The only reason I am considering it is the sludge on the cap after 200+ miles total. I will wipe it on a towel and let it dry, as well as hit it with a magnet.  I am really hoping this is nothing.

I will have the better gauges installed this weekend, so I will take a closer look then.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2022 at 5:59pm
Well, not the update I was hoping for.

I drove it down to the shop that rebuilt the engine. It's about a 30 mile drive one way.  Temp got up to 180 and the oil pressure was about 10 at idle and 40 at 45mph. The thermostat opened at 180, it briefly dropped to 140, then climbed up to 200.  As the temp climbed the oil pressure dropped.

About 30 minutes in to my drive the temp was hovering between 200 and 210, and the oil pressure wouldn't get above 30 going 45mph. And at stop lights it would drop to what looks like zero. I would manually pull the throttle out a tad to keep rpms up so I could see the pressure come up to about 10.

By the time I got there it was pretty heat soaked. It was about 78 here today but that cross tube to the carb was very warm.

He pulled a plug just behind the fuel pump on the block and put in his own gage. It was about 5 at idle and reving it he was able to get it up to 25 or so. He said while he would prefer more, it was still getting enough oil. He suggested a new oil pump. So that stinks.

Then he started messing with the carb. He said it was running too lean and made a quick adjustment. Then he tested each cylinder by grounding them out one by one by bridging a screwdriver to the head. When he got to number 3 it wouldn't bog. He said number 3 is dead. He swapped 2 and 3 plugs and said it was "a little better" but still not right.

Then when he looked closer at the carb to find the dead spot I mentioned he noticed all of the linkage on the carb (not from the peddle to the carb) was loose. He could move it almost a half inch before the rpms would change. He also suspects an accelerator pump problem.

He said the best option is to get a different carburetor. Great. No idea who to trust for that. 

So, he thinks that number 3 being weak is a huge issue. It is covered by warranty, since he rebuilt it, but he's not sure exactly what it is until he does leak down and compression tests.

And, he can't get to it for 2-3 weeks.  So after all of the waiting for the weather to turn here, I get grounded.

In the meantime I'm going to swap out the gauges, since the ones from Pete Debella showed up and are clearly 100 times better quality.

I'm torn on whether to drive it or not. I've got a 30 mile drive back to where I work on it, but the shop that will do the work is 10 minutes from my house. But I don't have anywhere were to store it.

He said it was safe to drive it. He suspects a broken ring or something to do with the valves or tappets.  

I asked why the oil pressure would continue to drop after it hit the high temps, and he said the oil could he 1/2 hour behind the coolant, depending on how you are driving. He seemed to think 200-210 is fine, but that seems high to me. I used to run this thing all day in the woods in low range and it never got over 180. 

He didn't know what oil they put in it, but after the break-in period i used Rotella 15W30 with a bottle of Moly..

Not really a question in all of that. But it gives me a pit in my stomach for sure.

Thanks


Edited by jgodfrey - 13 May 2022 at 7:51pm
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