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Oil Pressure and Temp Question

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Oldpappy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2022 at 9:39pm
"he said the oil could he 1/2 hour behind the coolant" Wondering what in the world that means.

"He suggested a new oil pump" 
"He said the best option is to get a different carburetor"
"He suspects a broken ring or something to do with the valves or tappets"

This sort of buffoonery is why I will always do my own engine work.  

If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2022 at 9:59pm
Buffoonery? That's pretty harsh. Could be premature?

It's not clear to me at all exactly what <details> the shop was contracted to do or what exactly he's responsible for --- and not <more details>.
It'd be interesting to hear his opinion, mainly because he put his hands on this motor --- and the rest of us haven't even seen it.

He's probably not a member of the forum to defend himself.



Edited by Ron D - 13 May 2022 at 10:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2022 at 10:24pm
He knows these engines well, and rebuilds a couple per month.

All of these guys are eccentric for sure.  In this case his shop has been there for 2 generations, but you'd better get to him after lunch or you'll get the grumpy version. He always starts off that way, but after 5 minutes of chit chat he's good.

For example, today he said he couldn't look at it. But I decided to try after he ate lunch an he said to bring it down. He was friendly and willing to give it a once over.  I suspected a bad gauge, but I wanted him to look at the sludge on the radiator cap. But it didn't come back so there was nothing for him to see.

When he listened to it he immediately knew it was missing, which is why he tested the cylinders with the screwdriver. 

He said anything wrong internally is warranty. He also said labor to install an oil pump and carb would be free. But I'll do those myself. He knows I washed the oil off the cylinders when I left a shop rag in the intake tube and super-flooded it (another thread in this crazy journey), and is still going to warranty it. It never ran without oil in the cylinders, but was turned over a fare amount. 

I will try to get the new gauges in this weekend to get reliable temp and pressure numbers. That's my starting point. 

The pit in my stomach is the number 3 cylinder.  And if I can't get the heat and oil pressure stabilized.

So, good shop overall. To be honest, there are some really shady guys out there.  Anyone that knows about the guy I started this process with knows what I mean.  Since then I've encountered at least 2 more so-called experts that were scammers. This shop isn't one of those.  Good guy with some quirks you need to navigate. 

Personally 200-210 and low oil pressure are bad. I'm much more comfortable at 180ish with 10 psi at idle and 40 psi going down the road. 




Edited by jgodfrey - 13 May 2022 at 10:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2022 at 11:44pm
It's good that you took it to him. It sounds like he is staying true to his word. I do question why he would not have installed a new oil pump. That makes no sense when you are doing a complete rebuild. 

Regarding your temps, you mentioned a carb problem. Running a motor lean can cause it to overheat. How do your plugs look?

You mentioned needing to get some carb work done and wondering who to trust to do it. Yours looks to be an original carb, many on the list swear by ScoutPilot for a rebuild. I have no experience but I'm sure someone will chime in. 

I hope you did not break a ring with all that dry cranking. I'm sure you will get it all working in the end.

Micah
1947 CJ2A 106327, Engine J109205, Tub 97077. Luzon Red

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote General Eisenhower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 6:28am
Ditto on what steelyard said,
Even if you dont want to send it to scoutpilot, he will still help you over the phone. But it's better to send it to him for a top notch rebuild first, that way there isnt any question about the carb for a good long while
I Like Ike!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 48willys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 8:10am
You may want to let him replace the oil pump since he offered, if you ever have trouble with a bearing or something he will know it was installed correctly.
Scoutpilot is a excellent place to send it, get one of his filters to go on the carb and you should get years of trouble free service.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

It's good that you took it to him. It sounds like he is staying true to his word. I do question why he would not have installed a new oil pump. That makes no sense when you are doing a complete rebuild. 

Regarding your temps, you mentioned a carb problem. Running a motor lean can cause it to overheat. How do your plugs look?

You mentioned needing to get some carb work done and wondering who to trust to do it. Yours looks to be an original carb, many on the list swear by ScoutPilot for a rebuild. I have no experience but I'm sure someone will chime in. 

I hope you did not break a ring with all that dry cranking. I'm sure you will get it all working in the end.

Micah


When I drove it home from the shop the ramps and pressure were the same as before he adjusted the lean. I didn't hear much difference, but what do I know.

Installing the oil pump is pretty straight forward, isn't it? Just mark the position of the notch on the one I take out, prime the new one, position the notch. And slide it back in.  

If it's trickier than that I'll let him do it. I was thinking king of dealing with that issue while I wait to get it into his shop for cylinder 3. I'm swapping the gauge today. But even with his gauge on the block it wasn't great. 

I also don't know what oil he used. So no idea how the viscosity holds up at temp.

And I think what he meant with the oil being 1/2 hour behind the coolant is that the coolant gets there first. That's all. I don't k ow about a half hour.

Thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 10:54am
I would let the mechanic install the new oil pump. He is only trying to make things right by you. Give him a chance.

I do think he was making a mistake by not installing a new oil pump during the rebuild, it's cheap insurance...unless you told him not to.

Edited by SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A - 14 May 2022 at 10:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 2:26pm
3X on letting him replace the pump. If he has to pull the engine to fix #3, it would be easy to do the pump too. Let him take the liability on that. 

As far as the lean condition, he probably only adjusted the idle. If something internal in the carb is off, such as a metering rod, you would get an off idle lean condition that would possibly make her run hot. Incorrect ignition timing can do it too. Get everything else addressed and see if the temperature problem persists before looking elsewhere.

Micah  
1947 CJ2A 106327, Engine J109205, Tub 97077. Luzon Red

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2022 at 6:31pm
I agree on the oil pump being installed at the shop. But I'll buy it, paint it, and bring it to him.

I'm still hoping he finds something simple on #3. The leak down test will tell me for sure.

I still want to drive it. He sort of shrugged and said I could, but it seems wrong. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 2:37am
There is a lot to digest with the report from the mechanic. "The oil lagging behind the coolant" means that the water will get hotter & cool off faster than the oil will. A 1/2 hour lag used to be considered "normal" back in the 50s. I am not sure that there is any science to bear that idea out. It does lag, but by how much & why does that matter in this case? Those temperatures are really bad.

I would have kept the engine & not let it leave my shop due to the very real possibility of causing more damage inside the engine with these extreme temperatures. The lack of oil pressure is concerning, but many worn engines have these same numbers. A rebuilt one should not. However, the temperature issue coupled with the oil pressure & low compression in #3 causes me to be very concerned.  

If the issue is broken rings, driving it will lead to more scoring of the cylinder wall. Which may cause irreparable damage to the cylinder and it's piston. The broken pieces may have "taken the oil pump out" they may also have caused bearing damage, which can lead to crankshaft and camshaft damage as well as connecting rod failure. Please do not drive it any more until you know what is causing the low compression & high temperatures.

If it is a valve issue, how bad is it? Will driving it more lead to the valve head breaking off? This would be the definition of "Catastrophic Failure", not good. 

Is there any metal shavings showing up in the oil. What does the oil filter look like? What does the oil smell like? So far there have been no bad noises? Please say no knocking, thumping, or screeching.

I try not to bash another mechanic so I will stop here. After all, he has seen and touched this engine as I have not. It is his engine to warranty as he sees fit. Yet, my advice is still do not drive this Jeep until all of these engine issues are resolved. A complete tear down & inspection is warranted.

IHTH, Cpt Logger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 8:02am
Even if the filter looked okay I would flush or clean it with some solvent and see what comes out of it. I just cut open a screw on can filter the other day (I am required to on that application). At first glance it looked okay but I found a teaspoon or so of magnetic slivers in it. That equipment will not run again until after the engine is overhauled or replaced. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 9:23am
Don't buy your own pump. Let him supply it. If something isn't right with the oil pressure after your pump is installed, then it is all on you because he can claim that you supplied a defective pump.

In my driveline shop that I operated for 18 years, I supplied ALL the parts for rebuilding driveshafts, transmissions, transfer cases, and axles. ALL of them.
The reason was that way I was responsible for the outcome, parts and labor. If a customer would have brought in a cheap part for me to install then he could have claimed that it was my labor at fault. If I didn't supply the parts, then I absolutely would not do the job and the person could find someone else to do the job. I always stood by my work whether it was a bad part or failure on my part to provide proper labor technique. There were maybe a half a dozen times during that 18 years that I had to make a job good.

Word of mouth advertising works two ways and good work paid dividends in repeat business and news customers that heard about me though satisfied customers.

OTOH, shoddy work and cheap parts will kill a mechanic's business very quickly.

Edited by SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A - 15 May 2022 at 9:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 9:52am
Originally posted by cpt logger cpt logger wrote:

There is a lot to digest with the report from the mechanic. "The oil lagging behind the coolant" means that the water will get hotter & cool off faster than the oil will. A 1/2 hour lag used to be considered "normal" back in the 50s. I am not sure that there is any science to bear that idea out. It does lag, but by how much & why does that matter in this case? Those temperatures are really bad.

I would have kept the engine & not let it leave my shop due to the very real possibility of causing more damage inside the engine with these extreme temperatures. The lack of oil pressure is concerning, but many worn engines have these same numbers. A rebuilt one should not. However, the temperature issue coupled with the oil pressure & low compression in #3 causes me to be very concerned.  

If the issue is broken rings, driving it will lead to more scoring of the cylinder wall. Which may cause irreparable damage to the cylinder and it's piston. The broken pieces may have "taken the oil pump out" they may also have caused bearing damage, which can lead to crankshaft and camshaft damage as well as connecting rod failure. Please do not drive it any more until you know what is causing the low compression & high temperatures.

If it is a valve issue, how bad is it? Will driving it more lead to the valve head breaking off? This would be the definition of "Catastrophic Failure", not good. 

Is there any metal shavings showing up in the oil. What does the oil filter look like? What does the oil smell like? So far there have been no bad noises? Please say no knocking, thumping, or screeching.

I try not to bash another mechanic so I will stop here. After all, he has seen and touched this engine as I have not. It is his engine to warranty as he sees fit. Yet, my advice is still do not drive this Jeep until all of these engine issues are resolved. A complete tear down & inspection is warranted.

IHTH, Cpt Logger.

Wow! Scary stuff. I won't dive it anymore.  So, those Temps (ranging from 190 at 40 mph on a flat road, to 210 up a long hill) would be considered high, correct?  

I would think he could scope #3 when it's all the way down to check the scoring etc. And pull the valve cover for that inspection. I'll pull the filter and see if there is evidence of foreign martial. The oil looked and smelled good on the dipstick (no fuel in it), and doesn't appear to have dropped.

There hasn't been a compression or leak down test yet.  He didn't have time Friday afternoon to do them. 

There are no bad sounds at all. He listened to it for a minute or two and when I asked if he heard anything concerning he said no.

After he made the adjustment to the carb, saying it was lean it did run slightly cooler on the trip home (5-10 degrees or so).

As a refresher, when I super-flooded it I brought him the jeep before the body arrived.  He immediately oiled the cylinders and turned it over manually very slowly. Once he felt it lubed up and it turned easily he cranked it and it fired right up. He changed the oil, set the timing, and tuned the carb (idle, lean, etc.) He had it for a couple days, then I put it on a trailer. The body was already at paint, so all of this happened in a very brief period of time. 

So I'm more than a little shocked that it was running lean Friday. I also think he would have caught it if it was missing on #3 during that whole fiasco. I don't recall if he did a compression test then, but I did ask if thought there was damage and he said no. Since it wasn't run, and only turned over a few times (quite a bit in my book since I swapped starters twice trying to get it to go) he thought the damage would be little to none. 

Of course,  none of this really matters until it's inspected. But since I'm in a holding pattern is very frustrating. I put a ton of money into that engine rebuild and 18 months of Saturdays building the test of it from the ground-up.

The good news is that I did this for my dad, and was able to take him for a bunch of rides, and he even drove it (even though that scared me to death).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 10:16am
Yes, those temperatures are high. I am quite concerned with the "heat soaking". If I understand correctly it stayed at 210+ for a long time, 1/2 hour? It was still hot for a long time after you arrived at the shop & shut it down?

That, coupled with zero compression in #3 cylinder, is quite worrisome.

As for your dad's driving, you just need to be prayed up. I always pray for a while before I go riding with my brother driving. It helps ease my mind to know that I am ready to die. It still scares my wife though. She will not ride with him. Smart girl.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 10:48am
Originally posted by cpt logger cpt logger wrote:

Yes, those temperatures are high. I am quite concerned with the "heat soaking". If I understand correctly it stayed at 210+ for a long time, 1/2 hour? It was still hot for a long time after you arrived at the shop & shut it down?

That, coupled with zero compression in #3 cylinder, is quite worrisome.

As for your dad's driving, you just need to be prayed up. I always pray for a while before I go riding with my brother driving. It helps ease my mind to know that I am ready to die. It still scares my wife though. She will not ride with him. Smart girl.
By heat soak, and I may be using it wrong, I mean that the intake cross tube being mounted to the head causes it to heat up - heating the air going into the carb. 

As far as temps, 210 was for short bursts during my drive. It hovered between 190 and 200 most of the time. 

I also want to make sure I'm clear on how I described #3. All we know now is that it isn't firing. It has spark, but we don't know about fuel or compression. All he did was arc out the plug on the head with a screwdriver. He said he'd do the compression and leak down test when it's in there.

He said the compression is a number you want to know,  but the leak down test is what he wants to know.


Edited by jgodfrey - 15 May 2022 at 11:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 11:22am
Ok, The intake tube that is bolted to the head has very little effect on the intake air's temperature as that air is moving fast enough that the heat does not really soak into it. If anything, the air is cooling the bracket a bit. I doubt that any heat transfer could even be measured with the tools I have. If you are worried about it you could place some kind of insulator between the tube & the bracket.

Heat soaking is when an engine, or any material is held at a high temperature for a long time, usually measured in hours. For an engine it means that the cooling system has been overwhelmed for a long time.

I have seen diesel engines that were glowing red for a few hours from very hard running that caused this condition. They were cooled off slowly & then inspected. It was not a good picture, however they did get the job done and we did not lose any lives that day. Well, except those engines, they were done.


Edited by cpt logger - 19 May 2022 at 1:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2022 at 12:24pm
Ok. Thank makes sense. Thanks

The reason I mentioned heat soak was that the horn on tip of the carb and the tube were pretty warm. Not too hot to touch but up there.

I'm used to performance cars where you do everything you can to cool the air before it goes in. And I know this is essentially a tractor, but hot air going in can't be great.
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