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Overdrive Question

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92889 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 3:48am
I bought an over drive recently from a guy online. It was rebuilt by Herm at atv and apparently never installed. It does appear to never have been installed. I have no reason to believe the seller was dishonest. Also I have the correct tooth and spline count. 

So things were moving along pretty well with the installation this afternoon. Then I went to measure how far the gear assembly stuck out (spec is .677 max) I was at .700/.710 depending on how I measured it with my sh*tty calliper. 

I had torqued the unit down to 110 ftlb. The spec is 100-120. So I figured if I cranked it down a bit more it might suck it in and I get within my .677 max overhang. 



Anyhow I could not get it to go so I decided to backtrack.

When I got it all removed the back of the OD planetary gear unit was partly off (pic below) there are 2 roll pins holding this rear cap on, but one looks not right (shorter one).






I think I figured out the clearance issue. I had an oil slinger disc in behind the gear. It’s .040 thick. When removed in theory I can get the unit back to below .677



I remember debating whether to put the oil slinger in there in the first place. Some Dana18 had them and some did not. I’ll reviewed some videos to see if there is a slinger back there or just the bearing without a slinge. One video has no oil slinger and I can’t tell on Metalshapers video. 

But there is still the question of the back of the OD unit. Those are just 2 small roll pins. Perhaps that can just be replaced and good to go.

Any input would be appreciated.

Do any of you have an oil slinger disc installed? 

Any thoughts on the back of the OD planetary gear unit? Replace pins and continue?

Hmmmmm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 8:49am
My advice would be step back from it for a day and let a few posts come in.

It appears you have a mixture of parts. 
The old design used roll pins, that one is designed for hex head cap screws.

What you called an oil slinger is actually a bearing race for the radial bearings. each rdial bearing takes one thin and one thick race.

I'll try to get the diagrams with 'proper' names of the components.

I'm notoriously bad about following thru with responding to posts though.

I'll try to get some pictures today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 9:29am
What Keith said X2.
It’s really hard to determine what Herm may have hodge podged together from an admixture of parts.
I’m not seeing any parts that suggest Warn and I know almost nothing about ATV and Saturn units.
Example: Looks like a Saturn or ATV bowl gear to me.
The thrust bearing must be in place including the race.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 10:24am
Sorry, but that does not look like the thrust washer which the radial bearing rides against in the nose of the bowl gear, and I see still on the gear.

It looks like an oil slinger. My question is where this was installed. 


Edited by Oldpappy - 12 Aug. 2022 at 10:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 92889 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 10:45am
JF and OT,

I completely agree with your strategy to step back for a day or two and gather information. 

When I bought the overdrive I was told it’s Saturn but when I posted pictures on another forum I was told it’s probably a Husky. Does not really matter to me so long as it functions properly. 

The “oil slinger” is not part of the overdrive kit. I had installed that when I rebuilt the transmission and transfer case. I remember seeing it aft of the main bearing in some diagrams but not others. It was in my original Dana 18 so I kept it. Seems very convenient that the thickness of the “oil slinger” (.040) is the exact amount that I need the overdrive to move in to be within spec. I think the solution to that problem is to remove the slinger.

That problem aside I’m still worried about the repair on this end cap. Hex nuts as you say could make more sense as there are recesses around the top of the original cap holes, but those holes have come to the edge and appear compromised. I don’t believe there were hex nuts however because the holes that receive the pins are not threaded. Perhaps different pins belong there, maybe roll pins, I’m not sure. The roll pins installed at 90degrees appear to be a repair. That whole unit gets squeezed together with the overdrive nut torqued down to the end of the transmission main shaft to 120 ftlb, then locking tab and snap ring applied to keep it there. The pins appear to be there to keep the cap from spinning. My question is if this repair is adequate?

I have sent Herm an email. I’m thinking he is probably the one who repaired this but I don’t know that for sure. If both roll pins were equal length I probably would now worry but one appears to be shorter and it’s obvious the outside have been filed down a bit to make the cap flush where it rests up against the main bearing.

I’ll attach a photo of the entire overdrive and of the repaired cap to illustrate what my concerns.

Does anyone have a link to Husky overdrive information or diagrams. I can’t find any, all I find is WARN information.





Edited by 92889 - 12 Aug. 2022 at 10:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 10:48am
Right, I never even noticed that pic till Andy said something.
That’s not looking like any kinda overdrive part I ever saw.
AFAIK the bearing thrust retainer should be fastened down using two very small Allen head cap screws not roll pins.


Edited by oldtime - 12 Aug. 2022 at 10:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 92889 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 10:58am
Maybe Allen head screws were installed on the original, I’ll go back and see if the holes are actually threaded, I did not think they were.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 11:13am
That nose cap is made to fit either and the holes for the screws are always that way. The early Warn units had the little roll pins, and when AA bought the unit from Warn their version had the screws. The roll pins are often found broken off or missing, but these are not critical. 

Normally the pins are in the nose of the planetary assembly and don't pull out with the cap as yours appears to have done. The only purpose for these as far as I know is to hold everything in place until the unit is installed. I think you can just tap the taller pin back into the nose and put it together. 

Install it without that oil slinger and you will be fine, but make sure the OD has the oil scoop which mounts in the rear section and catches oil off of the bowl gear to lubricate the rear bearing.  


Edited by Oldpappy - 12 Aug. 2022 at 11:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 92889 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 11:18am
I went back to inspect the holes that receive the pins. I can’t tell if they are threaded but I did manage to dig out a piece of broken roll pin.

Not getting that warm fuzzy feeling here!







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 92889 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 11:24am
Old Pappy,

That’s good information. Maybe I’ll install new pins and see how that goes. As I say the whole unit gets squeezed together at 120 ft lbs. 

And yes I have the oil scoop that goes in there.

I do have a friend who is an amazing machinist. I’d like him to have a look before I actually install the unit. 

If anyone has a diagram to confirm all of this I would love to see it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 11:35am
Originally posted by 92889 92889 wrote:

I have sent Herm a an email.


Good luck with that. My brother has been waiting 5 months on a repair on his CJ5 overdrive. Herm will not answer his phone calls.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 12:28pm
I'm starting to understand...

I didn't realize you meant deleting the oil shield from the transmission output shaft, I thought you meant deleting the oil scoop.

I've got the original Warn diagrams, as well as an NOS Warn, and Husky, in the box.

The roll pins are an assembly aid only, I've never seen a unit with both intact.

I'd say eliminate the .040 transmission output shaft oil slinger, replace the broken roll pin, be sure to install the oil trough or scoop. and install it. Be sure to use the proper Advance adapter or ATV gasket set. the gasket determines the clearance on the synchros by moving the case closer or further from your .677 reference.  (too thin a gasket, too little clearance and tight shifting, too thick a gasket, too much synchro clearance and grinding in and out of overdrive, or worse, popping out of overdrive)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 12:37pm
And after you torque the retainer nut be sure the lock plate and the odd snap ring that holds it in place is seated properly and the snap ring fully engages the groove for it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 12:37pm
I’ve had many a Warn OD  units and every single one had Allen cap screws. Even had new ones. Never had any with roll pins but then again all my units were the later 29 tooth rear shifters.

Edited by oldtime - 12 Aug. 2022 at 12:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 92889 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 1:26pm
JF,

Could you please dig out some of your overdrive stuff. I would love to see a photo of the end cap that you have on the NOS overdrive. Also if you could take a photo of the diagram and send it along I would appreciate that.

If email is easier I can be reached at 

cj2agpw@gmail.com

Thanks 

Jon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 92889 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 1:59pm
I did some more digging online using the desktop, I seem to have better luck than with my phone. I found these photos…


So it would appear the the answer is that I need cap screws.
Not sure why mine were drilled and pinned?

I also found this on Herms website…



Here you can see there are pins and screws.
Maybe the pins are a Herm thing?

Still looking for a diagram if anyone has one to share.

Thanks

Jon

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 2:30pm
I'll gather and post.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 2:32pm
Ken, 

I sold an early Warn OD (black metal label riveted to the case) to a member on the ECJ5 forum which was a front shift and 29 tooth bowl gear. It only had the roll pins, no provision for the screws. I had assumed the change to screws came about when manufacture of the unit went to AA. From your observation it must have occurred while they were still made by Warn.

Not sure when Warn sold it to AA, but must have been after the larger shaft D18 was in use. 
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