Forum Home Forum Home > CJ-2A Discussion Area > Tech Questions and Answers
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Pulling camshaft gear to change engine plate?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Pulling camshaft gear to change engine plate?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
Message
Adventure Van View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug. 2021
Location: AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adventure Van Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pulling camshaft gear to change engine plate?
    Posted: 13 Sep. 2021 at 10:52pm
Need a little help here. I'm giving my F head a rattle can rebuild, with a fresh set of gaskets and a paint job.  I have a question about the removal of the front engine plate.    Because I have an F head on a 2A frame, my driver side frame mount doesn't align with the engine plate mount.  I am at a fork in the road on this one.  I know that I can change the engine plate to the older 2A style (both ears facing rearward) and everthing will bolt in.  Alternately, I can improve on Bubba's previous work (wood block) and weld a rear facing tab on the existing engine plate that would align with stud in the rubber frame mount.   

My questions are: (Yes, I have read the manual)  

1.  If I went the non Bubba route and changed the engine plate, How difficult is the process of pulling and reinstalling the camshaft gear? It looks to me to be pretty simple.  Allign the two dots on the gears, remove the bolt in the camshaft gear, pull the gear.  Reinstall in same manner making sure that the dots align.  Am I missing anything important here? 

2.  How much should I expect to pay for an older style used front engine plate? 

Back to Top
Bruce W View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 July 2005
Location: Northeast Colorado
Status: Online
Points: 7436
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 12:57am
  As for pulling the cam gear, many have broken the gear by trying to pull it with a hook-style puller. There’s no good way to get aholt of it. I’ve had good luck with this method:  remove the center bolt that holds the gear on. Put the bolt back in place without the washers. With a screwdriver or pry bar on each side, put some (not much!) pressure behind the gear. Now tap (TAP!) on the bolt with a hammer. The gear will come off. Too much pry pressure will break the gear, and too much hammer can drive the expansion plug out from the rear of the camshaft. To re-install the gear, use the bolt (you may need to start with a longer bolt) to pull the gear back on. If you try to drive (hammer) the gear back on, you will probably drive out the plug. 
  I’ve used this method several times, and have never damaged a gear or removed a plug. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
Back to Top
cpt logger View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 23 Sep. 2012
Location: Western Colorad
Status: Online
Points: 2249
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 1:36am
IMHO, The risk of breaking the timing gear is just too great for me to want to do that. Instead I would build an adapter for the left engine mount that replicates the adapter Willys used to sell for installing a F-134 engine into a CJ-2a. It would be better than a piece of wood. Oak or ironwood might work OK though. Hee hee!

Someone has posted the dimensions & a drawing of this adapter somewhere on this site. I am too tired to look for it right now.
Back to Top
Adventure Van View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug. 2021
Location: AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adventure Van Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 9:03am

Thanks guys.  

Bruce your method is very tempting.  Just concerns me that I'm flirting with Murphy's law here.  An opportunity to break not one, but two different things.  You don't know my luck.  

Cpt Logger, I'm a little unclear if your suggested modification is to the engine plate, or moving the mount on the frame.  I have seen both done here.  I am tempted by Bubba to just weld a tab to the engine plate and be done with it.  

So far it's a tie with one vote for "do it right" and one for Bubba.

Anyone else have a vote, or suggestion?

In the meantime, maybe I'll post for the proper engine plate in "parts wanted"?


Edited by Adventure Van - 14 Sep. 2021 at 9:05am
Back to Top
Bruce W View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 July 2005
Location: Northeast Colorado
Status: Online
Points: 7436
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 12:10pm
  You know I’m a “purist” and a little OCD, but if I had a late-plate engine to install in an early frame and had no need to pull the front cover otherwise, I would be very tempted to weld a rear-pointing tab on and maybe cut off the front-pointing one. Maybe even cut the front-pointing foot off, turn it around, and weld it back on. Make sure the height comes out right though. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
Back to Top
drm101 View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 Dec. 2012
Location: Clarkston, MI
Status: Offline
Points: 1007
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drm101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 12:40pm
I would prefer welding to tapping in your situation. I struggled getting the cam gear off the cam of mine. It was like someone epoxied it to the cam. Eventually it did come off, but i remember not liking the process. Now I have a little leak between the block and plate and so far have not been bothered enough to pull it back apart and fix it. 
Dean
'47 CJ2A "Mud Hen"
The less the Power the More the Force
Back to Top
Adventure Van View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug. 2021
Location: AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adventure Van Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 1:40pm
Replacing the gasket behind the plate is a big motivator for me to pull the cam gear, but your story (drm101) about struggling with the cam makes me lean even more towards the Bubba method.   Anyone else have a vote?  (A)Change engine plate.  (B)Modify existing engine plate.  
Back to Top
Ron D View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 27 Oct. 2019
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 154
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 1:53pm
I have a spare M38 motor with a wrong front engine plate, both ears face rear. The M38 L134 and M38A1 F134 both use the same front engine plate with the drivers side facing front (to clear the fuel/vac pump body).  Can't say if what I have is CJ2A or MB/GPW because it's still mounted, but looks to be in good shape.

If your plate isn't bent, broken, welded, modified, or has wallowed out holes or anything else bad on it, I'd consider a straight trade and you could do yours right instead of doing more Bubba to it.

Maybe I was just lucky with my other motor but the fiber cam gear surprised me how easy it popped right off with no problem. At the time, it didn't matter if I broke it because I'm doing a complete rebuild and put a new one on it anyway. If yours isn't in perfect condition or you break it taking it off, they only cost about $50 new. Do you really want to regret later that you shouldn't be so cheap and spent the $50?

Maybe it's just me, but I learned quite some time ago not to cut corners with moving parts. Same for trying to make wrong parts fit where they don't belong. Good luck!





Edited by Ron D - 14 Sep. 2021 at 1:55pm
1951 M38
1951 M100
Back to Top
Ron D View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 27 Oct. 2019
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 154
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 1:59pm
There's a CJ2A front plate for sale on fleabay right now for $50 if my memory serves. Seems to be about the going price.
1951 M38
1951 M100
Back to Top
Adventure Van View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug. 2021
Location: AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adventure Van Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 2:03pm
Ron: PM sent.
Back to Top
cpt logger View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 23 Sep. 2012
Location: Western Colorad
Status: Online
Points: 2249
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 4:43pm
I do not consider making a replica of a factory Willys part a "Bubba" fix. Mind you I have & still do "Bubba" fixes.

Willys used a trapezoid adapter to fit F-134s into rigs that originally had L-134s. From airforcemajor's post from 21 Dec. 2018 at 3:30pm; "The adapter part number is WO-647193; Adapter, Engine Mount Bracket." He also gives dimensions of it there.

I forgot how to post links on this site. Yet Googling "cj-2apage, engine mount adapter" the thread is the 3rd one down, right now on my PC.

IHTH, Cpt Logger.

PS. Bob W later posted that the p/n is 647913.

Edited to add PS.


Edited by cpt logger - 14 Sep. 2021 at 5:44pm
Back to Top
Adventure Van View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug. 2021
Location: AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adventure Van Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 5:25pm
Thanks cpt logger.  I now understand the part that you are talking about.  Agreed that using that part/approach is not a Bubba repair.

Through the kindness of members here, I currently have two offers to get the correct engine plate.  I just have to get the guts to try to pull the cam gears.  I don't have the correct style puller, but could try Bruces method.   Oh, what to do?  Maybe I start out gentle and see if I have an easy one, or not?
Back to Top
cdn2a View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 03 Nov. 2010
Location: Canada (North)
Status: Offline
Points: 233
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cdn2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 6:36pm
For what its worth, your gear has 2 holes in it, you can undo the cam plate through the gear, if you keep the tappets up just remove the whole cam and gear together. After removing the valve springs I used a pack of small neo magnets to hold the tappets up.
Back to Top
Bruce W View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 July 2005
Location: Northeast Colorado
Status: Online
Points: 7436
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 7:17pm
Shocked WHY would one remove all of the valve springs, the distributor and the oil pump, and maybe the head too, just to R&R the cam gear?
  Do what I said, don’t pry too hard and don’t hammer too hard, it’ll be alright. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
Back to Top
Adventure Van View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug. 2021
Location: AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adventure Van Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 7:20pm
Murphy wins again!  I was attempting to turn the engine over (slowly with the spark plugs out) by the cam gear nut to get the dots to align on the gears.  I was watching my touque wrench and it broke at about 37 lbs.  Time for an easy out?  What to do?  I should have just welded an ear on it, but I feel commited now.  Just hope this doesn't turn into pulling the cam.  Uggh!
Back to Top
Bruce W View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 July 2005
Location: Northeast Colorado
Status: Online
Points: 7436
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 7:35pm
  OuchShocked  Oooohhhh, Nnoooo!  Did you read cdn2a’s post, just before my last one?
  “Easy-Outs” are badly mis-named. They can make the job anything but easy. You’re going to need a proper extractor set that helps you find the center of the bolt and guides you straight through the center. Not cheap, but neither is a camshaft. Use a reversible drill and a left-handed drill bit. Maybe it’ll grab the bolt and spin it out. Pick at it with an awl or an ice pick. Maybe it’ll move and you can work it out of there. Good Luck
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
Back to Top
Adventure Van View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug. 2021
Location: AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 69
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adventure Van Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

  OuchShocked  Oooohhhh, Nnoooo!  Did you read cdn2a’s post, just before my last one?
  “Easy-Outs” are badly mis-named. They can make the job anything but easy. You’re going to need a proper extractor set that helps you find the center of the bolt and guides you straight through the center. Not cheap, but neither is a camshaft. Use a reversible drill and a left-handed drill bit. Maybe it’ll grab the bolt and spin it out. Pick at it with an awl or an ice pick. Maybe it’ll move and you can work it out of there. Good Luck
BW 
I was too busy outside breaking my perfectly fine engine and I missed cdn2a's post.  

The biggest reason that I was hesitant to pull the gear was my lack of interest in getting into the engine internals.  The last thing I want to do is pull a cam.

I will research extractor sets next. Confused

I hope that this is good entertainment for you seasoned guys and most importantly providing a learning opportunity for the new guys (myself included).
  
Back to Top
Oldpappy View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 09 Apr. 2018
Location: East Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 1710
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep. 2021 at 8:27pm
It is entertaining, but only because most of us have had similar mishaps that turn a small job into something else. 

I have never broke that bolt, they usually come out fairly easily, but I have broke off bolts in places even more difficult to get at. I am thinking someone previously overtightened that bolt and it was already almost broken.

The upside is you got the gear off, and have a broken bolt that is in a recess, which is an advantage, and it is easy to get a straight shot at it with a drill it if comes to that. 

I try not to use an "Easy Out", there are better extractors, and as Bruce said it may come on out with a left hand bit, especially since the tension is off of it. 
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.