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Ran fine, suddenly won't start

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jgodfrey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 6:13pm
Freshly rebuilt and sitting on my frame waiting for the body to get back from paint.

A few mo ths ago, after some initial troubleshooting with the position of the distributor, it fired and ran great.

I was periodically running it to test my new radiator, look for leaks, torque head bolts, etc.  Then, I decided to change the ring gear to put a CJ2A starter back on it (it had a 3B level starter and different ring gear).

So, I pulled the engine to do this and it all went well. I put the engine back in and then I couldn't get it to start. It fired once, sputtered, then died.

I tried on several occasions to start it it, unsuccessfully.  Never really getting it to fire. In troubleshooting I found the number 3 plug wire was not on. So I thought that was it, but still nothing.

Today I tried again and again nothing. I don't have the air cleaner on it, so I stuck a flashlight into the cross tube to the carburetor and there was a blue shop paper towel shoved in there.  I pulled it out, fully in tact, again thinking that was the silver bullet. Still nothing.

I pulled the plugs and they were very black. Looking into the cylander I see th same thing. Swabbing the top of the cylander and it is very black as well. All four plugs and cylanders are evenly black.

What now? I cleaned the plugs twice with a bras brush and brake cleaner. Each time I pulled it they were black again.

I thought maybe the distributor got turned but it's in the exact same position as when it was running great.

The plugs don't look bad after being cleaned, but are they toast? Did I damage something else by trying so long to start it with that rag stuffed in the cross tube?

I'm slightly panicked and frustrated because I spent a fortune having this rebuilt and have exactly zero miles on it.

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.



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DMusil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMusil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 6:18pm
First I would check for spark. Pull one plug wire off put a different spark plug in the pulled wire. Put it on the block to ground it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 6:54pm
Running it with a rag in the crossover tube would be like running it with the choke on, and that could cause it to run rich enough to foul the plugs I suppose. 

Pulling and re-installing an engine presents many possible ways to knock something out of whack, or mis connecting something. If you left the distributor cap on when doing this it is very easy to bump it and cause a crack.

My thought is if you cleaned the plugs and then they fouled again it must be getting spark, else the plugs would just get washed with fuel and would be wet but not fouled black.

However spark is the first thing to check for. Make sure your coil wire is seated in the cap and coil, and then do as DMusil suggests and check for spark. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 7:09pm
I have spark. To the point where I shocked myself because I have the old style wires with no insulators.

The engine came out without the body on it. Easy and no bumping. It hung on the hoist while I changed the ring gear, then went back in.

It's not even firing. It turns over and does nothing.

The coul wire is in place and the distributor looks good. 

Should I try new plugs? That seems odd that it wouldn't fire at all when it ran great before that.

Thanks
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muley View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote muley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by jgodfrey jgodfrey wrote:


Should I try new plugs?
Thanks
 
 
No! don't go start buying parts. you goofed up somewhere putting the thing back together. it's gonna be something so simple you're gonna kick yourself for missing it. just sayin pulling then remounting the engine didn't make the plugs suddenly go bad..


Edited by muley - 04 Oct. 2021 at 8:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 8:53pm
When I had the number 4 plug pulled I turned it over.  I saw a puff of black soot come out of the hole.  The spark didn't seem great, just a little blue flicker.  I am no expert on what a strong spark should look like, but it just didn't seem right.

I looked back at pictures and video of just before the engine was removed to change the ring gear, and I actually didn't get it started on my last attempt.  It turned over, sputtered, and then promptly ran out of battery.

So, the rag was likely in there already, since I was getting ready to remove the engine.  I figured I had just flooded it and wasn't too concerned.  Now I am.

I just called it a night and could not get it going.  I even tried starter fluid - nothing.  Now, I only did a short burst in the carburetor, but still - nothing.

Could I have messed up the fuel pump or carburetor with that shop towel in the cross tube?  Should I pull all the plugs and just turn it over to clear it out?

Is there a way to see if fuel is flowing properly?  The bulb is just over the screen at the very top, so that is where it has been when it was running.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 9:08pm
Another thought.  If the rag being in the cross tube is the reason it wouldn't start prior to pulling the engine, it could still be the source of all this soot and fouled plugs.  But could the reason it won't start now be related the the starter itself?  I had a 3A starter in it - lever action that pushed the starter gear into the ring gear.

Now I have a 2A starter with a floor button.  The starter was just rebuilt by AB electric, and the cables to the battery and starter are brand new, as well as the floor button.  The floor button does get warm (not hot) when I am trying to get it to start, but it definitely does not turn over with the same power it did with the last starter.  It will turn over slowly at first, then when I choke it, it turns over faster, but still not as fast as it did before the swap.

Could I have something drawing too much power, causing a weak spark?  Could that starter just not being turning over quick enough?

As a side note, and I am not a carburetor guy, when I look down the barrel of it I see liquid.  It seems like that should not be the case.  Did I just WAY flood this thing?  Is there a way to easily drain this down?

Thanks


Edited by jgodfrey - 04 Oct. 2021 at 9:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 9:35pm
Good grief man! Fuel, air, compression, and spark all correct and at the right time and place.
If you just have to buy something right away --- maybe the Willys Service Manual for the troubleshooting procedures?
Pretty sure you didn't blow the motor. You'll find it, sooner or later.....cheaper if you can fight the urge to buy stuff until the manual tells you.

I think I read a post somewhere about a jeep guy who flooded his motor so bad that it apparently flowed all the way to the muffler. When he finally got it started, guess what happened? I don't think he owned the manual. LOL

Oops, I guess I said that out loud. Got to learn to quit saying the first and second things that come to mind. Sorry.


Edited by Ron D - 04 Oct. 2021 at 9:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote muley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 10:08pm
I'll bet my lunch that you've got your firing order messed up. happens all the time. guys will spend days shotgunning this and that to find that last time they fussed with the dist cap or plug wires they...……………………….
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 10:12pm
  Sounds like it’s flooded really badly. Hold the carburetor wide open and crank it. (Clear flood mode) you may need to crank it for a while - don’t pump it or choke it, it’ll only get worse. When it starts on 2 or 3 cylinders (note proper spelling), hold it wide open until it starts to pick up speed, then gradually back off of the throttle but don’t let it drop to idle until it smooths out. You might want to let it set with the throttle blocked open and the plugs out overnight, so the excess fuel can evaporate. 
BW 

Angry Edit to correct spellcheck’s f.u.


Edited by Bruce W - 04 Oct. 2021 at 10:14pm
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 10:17pm
Thanks Bruce. I will do all of the above and let you know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 10:26pm
It is possible you have flooded it. If so, letting it sit a while will let it dry out, but I doubt that is your problem.

"It's not even firing. It turns over and does nothing." 

This does not fit with the plugs being fouled "black" after you cleaned them and re-tried to start it. It has to be getting fire for it to turn the plugs black. If it was turning over without firing the plugs would just be wet with fuel, but not black. 

"I have spark. To the point where I shocked myself because I have the old style wires with no insulators."

This statement, along with the plugs getting fouled black, tells me it is firing, but perhaps it isn't firing when it should. Should be getting something though, back fires, puffs of smoke, or something. Doesn't make any sense. 

Impossible for a rag in the crossover tube to damage the carb or fuel pump or anything else.

It is unclear from your messages whether you think this rag was in there when "it was running great", or if it got stuffed in there when you pulled the engine, but all it would do is restrict air flow, just like running with the choke closed, and that could lead to flooding the engine. This, and the fact you see fuel down in the manifold, is probably an important clue. 

Clean the plugs again, let it sit for a day or two with the plugs out, then try starting it again before you start changing a bunch of parts, based on guesses, and eliminating any more clues.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 10:33pm
I'm with Muley.
Triple check the firing order. It's in the manual.
Then go get a cup of coffee and do it again. Get your better half to double check it.

And I think airing it out before firing it is a very safe idea.

Good luck!


Edited by Ron D - 04 Oct. 2021 at 10:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct. 2021 at 11:30pm
Check firing order and make sure engine has a good ground. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BUTA46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2021 at 5:47am
First parts I would buy would be new points, a new condenser and maybe a new coil. These three parts have caused me much consternation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2021 at 7:35am
Originally posted by JohnB JohnB wrote:

Check firing order and make sure engine has a good ground. 

counter clockwise.....

Still gets me once in a while. It will act just like you describe if you get this wrong. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2021 at 7:37am
"First parts I would buy would be new points, a new condenser and maybe a new coil. These three parts have caused me much consternation."

That may be true, but throwing new parts at it, based on guess work, without any real diagnosis of the problem further complicates the problem by making diagnosis more difficult. 


Edited by Oldpappy - 05 Oct. 2021 at 7:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RSR_MK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct. 2021 at 9:42am
I would follow Bruce’s advice. 

And add that I have had a set of plugs foul from severe flooding. It’s rare but it can happen. 

Mike 
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