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Ran fine, suddenly won't start |
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BUTA46 
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Joined: 17 June 2019 Location: Central Maine Status: Offline Points: 37 |
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 Posted: 05 Oct. 2021 at 11:10am |
I didn’t suggest buying parts prior to logical troubleshooting. Besides, one should have a spare of each of these on hand. Hmm. Faint blue spark, I think he said. Juice to plug issue is a potential problem. Condenser is cheap and really easy to change on my Jeep. Eliminate possibilities and you are left with the cause of the problem. Not that I’ve ever seen this situation before.
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BUTA- Back Up Try Again
46 CJ2A #73349 “Poison Icky” 46 CJ2A #51119. “Rock Sand” 46 CJ2A #80102. “Marilyn Jean” |
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Rus Curtis
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Joined: 25 Mar. 2010 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 1733 |
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Posted: 05 Oct. 2021 at 11:18am |
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I'd done similar on the set up. Firing order, fuel delivery, checked spark manually with stick. Used starter fluid. Still no start.
Distributor was 180 out. Rearranged the spark plug wires, fired right up - no starter fluid needed. Confirm the firing order. I did this by manually setting compression on #1 (socket/long extension on crank nut) finger in plug hole. after that was set, a visual on where the rotor is and go from there.
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Rus Curtis
Alabama 1954 CJ3B Bantam T3-C |
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cpt logger
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Joined: 23 Sep. 2012 Location: Western Colorad Status: Offline Points: 3043 |
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Posted: 05 Oct. 2021 at 12:49pm |
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IME, With the quality of new parts, I would hesitate to just throw new condenser & points at this issue. You might find that these new parts do not work as advertised. Then unbeknownst to you, you now have two or three problems, which is much harder to diagnose than just one problem. I have seen this rodeo many times when helping a friend or two who have thrown parts at an issue. Finding all three problems can take some time & IMHO is a real unnecessary PITA! If it ain't broke do not "fix" it....yet. Get it running first. If there is blue spark, it will run. Heck IME, if there is bright orange spark if will run, not well, but it will run. The only new parts I would throw at it are good quality spark plugs. On very rare occasions, if they have been severely flooded with fuel, they will foul so badly that they will not work. Do you have a known good set? Perhaps taken out of a running engine, or perhaps an old set that you have been carrying with your tool kit? IHTH, Cpt Logger. |
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drm101
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Joined: 12 Dec. 2012 Location: Clarkston, MI Status: Offline Points: 1471 |
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Posted: 05 Oct. 2021 at 2:20pm |
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If you open the choke and look down in the carb, then hit the throttle quickly, you should see gas from the accelerator pump squirt out. That's how you know you have fuel. I clean gas fouled plugs with a small torch. Warm up the ground electrode, but not so warm that it glows red. You never want to heat the center electrode until it glows red or you could expand it enough to crack the ceramic. Just warm them enough to evaporate fuel and oil from the center and ground electrode. Then use a small wire brush and air to clean any particles from the working end of the plug. If in doubt, throw them out. Spark plugs are cheap. That said, if you get the carb tuned right, a good set will last practically forever in an old Willy's.
Edited by drm101 - 05 Oct. 2021 at 2:24pm |
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Dean
'47 CJ2A "Ron" '66 CJ5 "Buckie" The less the Power the More the Force |
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Ron D
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Posted: 05 Oct. 2021 at 5:39pm |
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I clean fouled spark plugs with a squirt or two of brake cleaner and a soft brush.
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1951 M38
1951 M100 |
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Bruce W
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Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9652 |
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Posted: 05 Oct. 2021 at 6:33pm |
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In the days of high-compression engines and leaded fuel, gas-fouled plugs were considered ruined. No cleaning, even sand-blasting, would make them work again. I guess there must have been a coating of lead that stayed on them. Since I don’t deal with high compression engines or leaded fuel any more, I’ve had pretty good luck cleaning plugs with choke cleaner or brake cleaner and a brass brush.
BW
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It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
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BUTA46
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Joined: 17 June 2019 Location: Central Maine Status: Offline Points: 37 |
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Posted: 06 Oct. 2021 at 5:38am |
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I probably don’t have as many triangle shaped “hood bites” on the back of my triceps as most of you here, but I’ve got some, I’ve had my Jeep for more than twenty years and I have had this particular chase more than once. Three out of five no-starts were the condenser. The other two were the coil. In the old days my dad and my grandpa replaced points and condensers annually on each of our vehicles at the tuneup. They go bad. See the tune up section of the service manual. Everybody’s got a manual, right? Put your spare condenser on and try it. If it doesn’t fix it, put the old one back on. It’s in the manual. How old is your condenser? How much does a new one cost? How hard is it to change?
Just trying to help the guy start his Jeep. |
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BUTA- Back Up Try Again
46 CJ2A #73349 “Poison Icky” 46 CJ2A #51119. “Rock Sand” 46 CJ2A #80102. “Marilyn Jean” |
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Oldpappy
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Posted: 06 Oct. 2021 at 7:23am |
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You may have read something in my earlier response that wasn't intended, and may have missed where the OP said he is getting a "blue spark", which doesn't indicate a bad condenser, or coil.
That said, there are plenty of crappy condensers on the market, and buying a new one doesn't mean you are buying a good one. Changing parts at this point just might introduce additional problems, or cover up the real problem. |
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If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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BUTA46
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Posted: 06 Oct. 2021 at 8:35am |
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Umm…
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BUTA- Back Up Try Again
46 CJ2A #73349 “Poison Icky” 46 CJ2A #51119. “Rock Sand” 46 CJ2A #80102. “Marilyn Jean” |
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Oldpappy
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Posted: 06 Oct. 2021 at 9:14am |
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Not sure what point you are trying to make, but the symptoms do not indicate a bad condenser. If it were bad he would not be getting a blue spark, and he would not be getting fouled plugs.
There is indication of a badly flooded engine, perhaps initially caused by the rag in the breather tube, and possibly something wrong with the firing order, but regardless of how many "hood bites" one has on his biceps, or what you underlined in red in the manual, the fact is it doesn't make sense to start tearing apart the ignition on an engine that is getting fire. What can be misleading about such an approach is while taking time for parts swaps that are not indicated enough time may pass for the flooding to clear itself, and leave an incorrect assumption on what fixed the problem. Thoroughly soaked, and black fouled plugs won't fire even with the best condenser.
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If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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drm101
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Posted: 06 Oct. 2021 at 9:21am |
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Another handy (and cheap) tool is a spark tester. They look like a spark plug with a clamp attached. Clamp it to a grounded bolt and connect a plug wire. I like it because you can try it on your lawn mower or other small engine or car, then compare with the vehicle your having issues with. It also keeps you from getting zapped trying to hold a spark plug against a good ground.
I've been running my same condensor, points and spark plugs for 8 years now. I think when you find a good condensor, they last a long time. Of course, it's not a daily driver. I think I've only put 3000 or 4000 miles in it in 8 years. You can check the condensor by loading it with a multimeter set on OHMs. 1st discharge the condensor by connecting the terminal to the case with a wire. Connect the ground lead to the case and red lead to the terminal. If it's shorted, it will show low resistance. If it's open, it will instantly read as an open circuit when you connect the leads. If it is OK, you will see the value rise, then settle at open. Not as good as a capacitance tester, but better than guessing. You can also load it with 12 volts, then use your meter set on voltage. connect black lead to case, and red lead to terminal. You should see 12V for an instant, then it will quickly go down to 0V as it discharges.
Edited by drm101 - 06 Oct. 2021 at 9:28am |
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Dean
'47 CJ2A "Ron" '66 CJ5 "Buckie" The less the Power the More the Force |
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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A
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Posted: 06 Oct. 2021 at 9:48am |
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I have been running the same condenser for years. I do change the points when they get to the point of needing it. The condenser I am running is an old NAPA Echlin condenser and I have one more on the jeep as an emergency spare along with a spare set of Echlin points, rotor and cap. I will run that condenser until it quits because I don't have confidence in the new condensers on the market today. Ol' Red is a daily driver and it has about 11 thousand miles on that condenser over 15 or so years.
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46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)
U.S. Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer(ret.) U.S. Army Vietnam veteran and damned proud of it. |
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BUTA46
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Posted: 06 Oct. 2021 at 6:46pm |
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I’ve had the same condenser for six years. Runs great. I get that.
Here’s the point I’m trying to make.  The black sooty stuff is partially burned fuel because the ignition spark is too weak and too slow to completely burn all of the fuel in the chamber. The flooding happens after that and the weak spark just burns even less fuel each time it fires. The Willys people thought enough about the problem to put the solution in the owners manual.
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BUTA- Back Up Try Again
46 CJ2A #73349 “Poison Icky” 46 CJ2A #51119. “Rock Sand” 46 CJ2A #80102. “Marilyn Jean” |
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Ron D
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Posted: 06 Oct. 2021 at 7:44pm |
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Logical troubleshooting thinking? What came first, the chicken (flooding) or the egg (weak spark)? The OP said the engine ran "great" before he stuffed a rag down the crossover tube, disassembled stuff, put it back together, and tried to run it. Find and fix the flooding problem first. What caused it? Yes, the obstructed air intake. And maybe wrong firing order when he put it back together. Both very easy to check and correct without needing any new parts. In the military we had a name for changing parts on a guess or because it's easier than thinking the problem through.....it was called "Easter egging" the problem. Technicians and mechanics who rely on finding Easter eggs were called Easter bunny's. Not something anybody wanted to be known for by the real tech's and mech's. Check and fix first things first. Then move on to the guts in the distributor. The OP hasn't been back to tell us how it's going or what he found. Edited by Ron D - 06 Oct. 2021 at 9:29pm |
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1951 M38
1951 M100 |
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muley
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Posted: 06 Oct. 2021 at 7:56pm |
Mebbe doesnt want to get in the middle of it, some of the replies have gotten a touch "edgy". Give ol' Jason time to work thru it, i'm sure he'll reply soon.
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Joined Jan-8 2015
I never met a mule I didn't like! OD Mule 01-52 M38 Big Red 19fiddy CJ3A salad |
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Ron D
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Posted: 06 Oct. 2021 at 7:59pm |
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I keep forgetting it doesn't take much to heat up a kitchen nowadays. Different generation I guess. Not my intent to contribute to "edgy" or hurt anybody's feelings. Apologies if due.
Edited by Ron D - 06 Oct. 2021 at 8:00pm |
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1951 M38
1951 M100 |
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BUTA46
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Posted: 07 Oct. 2021 at 5:25am |
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For anyone interested in helping start the OP’s Jeep, I’m going to refer you all to your manuals. Operation and Care, not Service. Page 53, Emergency chart.
Step One under Engine Fails to Start: No Fuel Step Two:No Ignition Current (See page 22) Pages 22 and 23( Read them both carefully from the first part verifying fuel supply to the last line which tells you what to replace and why) 1: verify fuel supply 2: Check ignition circuit wiring connections 3: Check distributor breaker points for smooth, flat contact with the proper gap 4: Inspect distributor cap and rotor for cracks, etc 5: Check for current at breaker points 6: test secondary coil circuit (read this one really carefully) That was step Two from the emergency chart. If all of that is ok, move on to step three of the emergency chart which is spark plug gap Step Four: distributor points gap! Step Five: cylinder or manifold flooded Step Six: Moisture on the high tension terminals Step Seven: gas is too lean Yeah, logical troubleshooting from the manufacturer is a reasonable way to isolate a problem. The OP’s engine started, sputtered, died and almost started again. I’d check the condenser. And if it stays flooded, I’d check the carburetor metering rods for dislocation. Phil
Edited by BUTA46 - 07 Oct. 2021 at 6:54am |
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BUTA- Back Up Try Again
46 CJ2A #73349 “Poison Icky” 46 CJ2A #51119. “Rock Sand” 46 CJ2A #80102. “Marilyn Jean” |
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Oldpappy
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Posted: 07 Oct. 2021 at 9:13am |
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Most of us have a manual, and I think all who have posted on this thread, including you, and the rest of us are trying to help Jason start his Jeep. I am sure that your intentions are good, but your first suggestion was to start by tearing apart a working ignition, and now you are suggesting tearing apart the carburetor. I have underlined an import part of the steps you presented from your manual. "Step Two:No Ignition Current (See page 22)" Logical trouble shooting requires some understanding of what is going on Did you miss where the OP said he is getting a "blue spark", or do you just not understand that shows "Ignition Current" is present? Having a manual is good for reference. Reading what you presented there is no reason to go to page 22. Your assumption that a weak spark caused the flooding is incorrect, in this case. Can that lead to a flooded engine? Sure it can, but a blue spark does not indicate that as the problem. Jason found a rag obstructing the air flow. The logical steps are correct this obvious problem first, clear the flooding, verify firing order, clean or replace (what I would do) the fouled plugs, and try again, before tearing anything apart. Edited by Oldpappy - 07 Oct. 2021 at 10:10am |
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Oldpappy wrote: