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Roll cage design experience?

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jeeper50 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan. 2018 at 3:36pm
 Found this pic several years ago, another stock cage failure. Better to err on the side of caution than under estimate tubing collapse. It will be good to see what you come up with with. As far as that trucker pushing you I would have sent a couple of high speed lead trinkets at him when he was pulling that sh*t

Belleview ol skool winch soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan. 2018 at 4:25pm
I've never designed a rollbar, nor had the need to "use" one, but perusing the pics of "failed" roll bars it occurs to me that you can't call them failures without knowing the outcomes.  The slow speed tip over or roll while wheeling is one thing, a full on highway speed tumble is completely something else.  Those failed pics all show the roll bars doing one thing well... energy absorbtion and providing at least a potentially survivable cockpit space.  You put any car upside down at 65mph in unknown conditions and a lot can happen, you can't design for everything, and it's already a bad day.  People routinely got severly hurt going much slower than highway speeds back in the day.  Cars were heavy iron, and the knee jerk reaction to increasing safety was to make things stiffer, stronger and heavier.  The unintended result was a more direct transfer of energy from collision to occupant.  From that came the concept of crumple zones and energy absorption.

I only mention this as food for thought looking at all those X's... yes it will survive more of a shock, but if you're tied directly to it... and who wants to drive uptown wearing a helmet, HANS collar yada yada.

Dale Earnhardt didn't roll, but he certainly absorbed some energy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan. 2018 at 6:54pm
Lots of pretty good points posted here.

A roll cage protects you in the event of a roll over but the ironic thing is, it also increases your likelihood of rolling over Not only does it add weight which makes it more difficult to climb an obstacle, but as Brain and Stan said, it adds the weight in the worst possible spot which raises you CG. You can't use Wrangler examples because they are wider and longer. You put the extra weight up on a vehicle that is only 58ish inches wide and you could have trouble. I don't believe you can "over engineer" a rops system, but part of that over engineering needs to be allocated to weight and CG. IMO, there is nothing wrong with all that protection so long as you stay away from off-camber obstacles.

Here is a video of one of Bridog's friends with a nasty roll:



His cage protects the whole zuki pretty good and does not have all those X members. This is the kind of roll over I would be afraid of.

If it were me, I'd get as much weight out of the roof as possible and if I felt like I needed more support, make the "X" on the sides or keep them as low as possible.

I like nofender's cage. I also like the angled back. It's best to bring the outside corners in as far as you can because they will catch on trees, unless you are Unkamonkey.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan. 2018 at 8:34pm
To add a fuel for thought as jpet and other have said weight above the CG is not a plus.

In another hobby of mine Control Line Model Airplanes (some of my planes will do 150mph on 60' steel cable lines this is not a cox model airplane) any good model builder knows that the lighter a model is built the better it will survive contact with the ground. Less kinetic engery stored in the mass to have to stop. I have seen very light models hit the ground at 60+ MPH and aside from a bent to crap landing gear and maybe a crack here and there be ready to fly again in a few min. On the other hand I have seen very solid built models hit the ground in a very similar fashion be almost blow to pieces as the energy is released.

I have added a lot of weight to my Jeep in the form of floor structure and suspension modifications. But then are all at or even below the CG of the Jeep. If you look at the Data plate for a M-38 the diagram shows the CG for an empty flat fender (granted slight differences between an M-38 and a 2A or 3A BUT NOT MUCH) is 25" Empty and 29" loaded from the grade (ground level)

1.75" x .120 Wall DOM weighs 2.089 lbs per ft. Just estimating from you drawing it looks like some where between 80 and 90 ft of tubing thats 170 to 190lbs approx. Thats a lot of additional weight so far above the CG IMHO.


Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bridog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan. 2018 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by sparky13 sparky13 wrote:

Hey Bridog,  I would like to see some pictures of your cage in your jeep.  I am working on a 1946 CJ2A and would like to put a roll cage in it some day.  I was following your build thread on Rojo also. you have some very nice looking Jeeps. 


Thanks Mark! Here are a couple pics of the roll cage in Blueberry that show a top view. The bars running along the inside of the body that the front seats mount to are also visible. Dad and Dylan are putting the final touches on the cage design for Rojo. I will post some pics of the design and fabrication on the build thread.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigdaddy13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan. 2018 at 10:53pm
This is the closest example i've found online of what i want to end up with. And much like Bam-Bam, i'm probably going to hide much of it under a canvas top, with roll-up/zip-out sections. 

And please understand, i am a seasoned offroader (cj2a is my 8-9th 4x4) with a wife and young daughters to protect, so I'm not trying to say your design is too much.
I think what i'm sharing above is a good balance of weight/safety/a minimum of "bars near heads". Too much weight up high is as dangerous on a side hill, as no cage, in my opinion. No one thinks of the rocks or branches that could come into the cab even in the stoutest of cages in the event of a rollover. 

Something to consider, anyways

No matter what, drive slow, walk the trail first, and never be too manly to pull a winch line or take the bypass. :)
 







Edited by bigdaddy13 - 23 Jan. 2018 at 6:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sparky13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2018 at 12:21am
Hey Bridog.  Thanks for the pictures.  I like the way your cage looks. I really like how you have the bars running on the inside of the body. Is it tied into the frame too?  Can you put a windshield on the jeep with the cage?  Do you have a build thread on that jeep?
Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2018 at 12:29am
This is just a rough start of what I would do if I were making a roll bar/cage for a CJ2A:



The individual can add extra support if they see fit, tie it to the frame, and/or add an “A” pillar behind the windshield if they want to. If they just want a simple roll bar to protect them in a flop. They can use it as is and just bolt it to the wheel wells like a conventional roll bar.   The main focus I want to convey is the outer shape of the cage:



..... it has the same shape as the stock bows so you could throw a summer top on it and it would be hard to detect, like BAM BAM’s cage



If I were making it for myself, I’d add an “A” pillar like BAM BAM’s and tie them together at the roof for strength and to support the canvas. I’d also lean the “B” pillar backwards 3 degrees to mimic the original bows. The horizontal cross bar is used to mount shoulder harnesses. A cage like this would be made of 1-1/2” DOM tubing using the tube bender I made that can make a 3-1/4” radius. If the radii are too big, it won’t look stock.

Edited by jpet - 23 Jan. 2018 at 12:31am
CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2018 at 12:40am
some random thoughts....

You need a cage to do it's job only one time. In the pictures posted of smashed up jeeps - I'd go out on a limb and say those cages did there jobs. The passenger compartment is not compressed to the point that a driver and passenger couldn't survive. If you look at the brown TJ - windshield is still up right. The passenger door is intact, containing the passenger. All the rigs are totaled. I'm sure there were injuries, maybe even serious ones. But I bet those folks all lived. 

I don't believe for one second that my cage would protect me in a 65 MPH snap roll situation. I'd think I'd have a pretty good shot of surviving. But there is more to it than just a cage. Seats, belts, etc all play a role. When I was doing some go fast stuff, If speeds were above 25, I was 5 point harnessed and wore a helmet. We hit some pretty high speeds on Means. But discretion is the better part of valor. While it was exhilarating to hit high speeds, I backed it down to 55-60. I simply don't have the engineering skills to build a safety structure for those types of forces. 

A cage for what we do should be about balance. You don't need crazy cages for such light weight rigs. You need a balanced structure appropriate to the weight of the rig. You need to think of a cage as an expendable part of your vehicle. I've replaced more than a few bars that took a hit, did their job, absorbed the energy and saved the day. 

I don't think your cage design is bad by any means. I just think it's a little out of balance for the weight and use of the rig.

I'll add a pic of a friend all out comp rig. Granted not a fair comparison, just an example of how simplicity is extremely stout. I've seen his rig (as his former spotter) take some serious rolls/hits. One was so serious, that I decided to no longer spot for him. It scared the hell out of me and I never wanted to be responsible for his injury. That said, the multiple rolls rung his bell. But he walked away completely uninjured. 

forgive my musing....but it's a topic I really enjoy discussing. 

added a random pic of my underhood structure as well. 




46 CJ2a rockcrawler
46 CJ2a - 26819
46 Bantam T3c "4366"
47 Bantam T3C - 11800
68-ish CJ5
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bridog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2018 at 2:18am
Originally posted by sparky13 sparky13 wrote:

Hey Bridog.  Thanks for the pictures.  I like the way your cage looks. I really like how you have the bars running on the inside of the body. Is it tied into the frame too?  Can you put a windshield on the jeep with the cage?  Do you have a build thread on that jeep?


There is no build thread for this Jeep. I built it in 1999, changed the drivetrain in 2003, and it has not really changed much since then. Most of the time it has a 3A windshield on it and occasionally a full Bestop. The cage does not interfere with the windshield or the soft top. The roll cage is tied into the frame in 8 places. Each rock slider is tied into the frame in 2 places plus the A hoop tie in which sandwiches the rock slider. The mounts are a little hard to see in the pic below so I circled the roll cage frame mounts in red and the rock slider mounts in yellow.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2018 at 4:52am
That was nice of you to lay it on its side so you could get the pics for sparky13.  Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigdaddy13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2018 at 5:52am
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

This is just a rough start of what I would do if I were making a roll bar/cage for a CJ2A:



The individual can add extra support if they see fit, tie it to the frame, and/or add an “A” pillar behind the windshield if they want to. If they just want a simple roll bar to protect them in a flop. They can use it as is and just bolt it to the wheel wells like a conventional roll bar.   The main focus I want to convey is the outer shape of the cage:



..... it has the same shape as the stock bows so you could throw a summer top on it and it would be hard to detect, like BAM BAM’s cage



If I were making it for myself, I’d add an “A” pillar like BAM BAM’s and tie them together at the roof for strength and to support the canvas. I’d also lean the “B” pillar backwards 3 degrees to mimic the original bows. The horizontal cross bar is used to mount shoulder harnesses. A cage like this would be made of 1-1/2” DOM tubing using the tube bender I made that can make a 3-1/4” radius. If the radii are too big, it won’t look stock.


looks great!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2018 at 6:23pm
I want to get around to responding to all the input, but I have a few quick questions first. Bear in mind while reading that the entire purpose of this post has been to figure out if and how I need to modify the current design.

The redesign-in-progress will cut back on the weight of the cage.
Also in the works are a bumper-mounted swing-away tire carrier for 2 tires and 2 jerries. Previous outings in the area have demonstrated the need for two spares. It will also be getting an 'aux' tank mounted across the middle of the rig under the floor. If I take it to max dimensions of the space, it could be 27 gallons of fuel below CG. Of course the CG would change as fuel is used.

Now for the questions:
Everything I've read on cage design has said that the minimum bend radius should be 3x the tube diameter. For 1.75 inch tubing, this would be 5.25 inches. I could go to 1.5 inch tubing with a minimum 4.5 inch radius, but then we're talking about dropping tubes and using smaller tubing.
At what point do we cross the line from too much cage to too little?

I've also read that the minimum tube size recommended for a 2500-3000lb rig is 1.75, and only that small in DOM. I don't remember if it recommended .095 or .120 wall, though. With me, two full jerries and a 75 pound tool box, Ironsides weighs 2860 across the local CAT scales. So completely empty - no driver, tools, or fuel, it weighs about 2350lbs

Mark, do you know which 'loaded' weight gives a 29" CG? The 500lbs off-road, 1200lbs on-road, or military 'combat loaded'?

If the cage, as designed above, will weigh roughly 190 pounds, let's consider the following:
It will weigh about has much and have similar weight distribution to an adult male standing about centered between the front and rear seats.

Have any of you had an adult passenger stand up while riding in the front passenger seat? Your vertical weight distribution would be similar, but off center. Did you notice a difference in handling? I'm not asking sarcastically. I'm truly interested in the answer.

My wife and I frequently hunt together in the jeep, and it's not uncommon for the passenger to be standing while crawling in first/low at idle. I haven't noticed a difference, but we're going about as slow as a jeep can go. Similarly, I haven't noticed a handling difference in our 95 Golf with a full size spare on the roof rack. That said, I stuffed the full size spare for our 67 F100 in the ladder rack above the cab once, and I thought the truck was going to roll over on a normal right-hand corner. Hence the questions above. Given that the jeep has no sway bar, it will likely handle more like the truck did at speed. Another good reason for the cage to lose some weight.

Let's run a quick numbers exercise:
How much am I going to affect the CG of my truck?
Cooper Tire says the tires on my jeep weigh 44 lbs each. I'll swag (scientific wild-ass guess) the rim weight at 12 lbs, so 2 spares should weigh in the neighborhood of 112lbs. Lets call 2 full jerries 65lbs. Total at 177lbs and guess the carrier in at 70 pounds, for a rear load of an estimated 247, call it 250 pounds (yes, this will include a new bumper Big smile ). The 29" CG measurement sits about an inch above the door cutout on the jeep, which sits just below center (vertically) at the back of the tub. The center of the loaded carrier would sit a little higher, but not by much. The total effect on the CG would be to shift it rearward and slightly up.

If the aux tank I fit on the jeeps has a 20 gallon capacity, it would sit with it's front face almost even with the back of the transfer case. The rear of the tank would be 18-20 inches rearward. The tank would sit completely below rear floor level. Empty, it would partially offset the raise in CG created by the tire carrier. If we swag the weight of the empty tank at 25 pounds (pulled it out of thin air) and add 120 pounds of fuel, we're adding 145 pounds of (non-constant) weight below the CG, helping to mitigate the effects of the roll cage.

So at this point the combined weight of the proposed cage, aux fuel tank, and spare carrier is about 575 pounds.Slightly over the listed 'quarter-ton' rating with no passengers, fuel, or gear.

For me, this begs two questions:
What is the real weight rating of a(n) MB/GPW/CJ2A? How was it calculated? Was the 500lbs in addition to fuel, driver, spare tire, and pioneer tools?
How does that affect my jeep?

I did some digging and found some numbers:
Average weight of a WWII GI "as he appears at the clothing counter of a [US Army] reception center" was 144lbs *
The equipment weight of a standard US Army Rifleman was 82.02 pounds*
So the 'average WWII rifleman" weighed in at approx 226 pounds. Four GIs in a jeep with no other gear exceeds the 500 pound rating by over 400 pounds.

The jeep may be classified as a 'quarter-ton' truck, but what is/was it's legitimate carrying capability?

How does this impact Ironsides? With its 24 inch stretch directly amidships, I suspect that my carrying capacity is lower than a typical jeep. The frame is longer with no additional support. The stretched section is heavier metal, but that will concentrate bending & torsional loads at the frame splice joints.

I'm not designing the roll cage in a vacuum. I'm trying to engineer my modifications to work together, but I'm lacking experience in some of this stuff.

Jpet: first, the obstacle in the video is one that I'd be driving around on a trail run. Ironsides will be an expedition truck as opposed to a rock crawler. However, that's exactly the type of off-road rollover I'm designing for.

The only reason I'd ever attempt that type of obstacle is if we're running from a forest fire and the roads were jammed up, and there was no other way past. We actually came close to that a couple years back...


Second, the partial cage you posted is similar to one I've been looking at as the back-half of mine:


I'll be back in a bit. I'm falling asleep in my chair typing this...


Edited by LesBerg - 23 Jan. 2018 at 6:33pm
1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote binthere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2018 at 10:22pm
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing, but I have been jeeping for more than 50 years. All my jeeps had a roll bar or sand bar in them. I have driven some severe trails and maybe it's the way I drive, but never came close to rolling. As for highway driving, using common sense and speed will keep you safe. IMO, the only time I would consider a cage would be if I was rock crawling!  Just my opinion, and I made it to 75!
The only other suggestion I would make is " make absolute sure that your vehicle  is 100% road worthy every time you go out"!!


Edited by binthere - 23 Jan. 2018 at 10:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2018 at 10:23pm
Wes do you still have 2A springs? if you have changed springs then your load rating would be different. In my case I am running a CJ-5 frame and suspension with some minor improvements. So

Here is the M-38 Data Plate the M38A1 data plate is basically the same loads but starting out like 50lbs heavier.


Which shows if I am reading correctly a 1200lb payload for on road use and 800lbs for off road use. Now a M-38 has springs more like a CJ-2A then a CJ-5 so I would assume the load ratings would be the same between the two critters.

A 1957 CJ-5 specs list
base curb weight: 2273 lbs,
gross weight GVWR: 3750lbs
which would result in a payload of 1523lbs

A 1957 CJ-6 specs list

base curb weight: 2337 lbs,
 gross weight GVWR:  3900 lbs
which would result in a payload of 1563lbs

CHUG is built on a 56-57 CJ-5 frame and suspension so I am using the 1957 CJ-5 numbers in my planning For towing numbers I am relying on the M-38 data plate and planning on having my trailer no heavier then 1500lbs fully loaded.

Also on the Tubing The guy who bent my roll bar is a hot rod and race car builder like the goobers you see on TV (well a lot more into building actual Drag Race cars) and he only has one radius on his tubing bender 5.5" center line He also only bends 1.75" tubing and anything made from Mild steel is .120" wall . You can use lighter weight material if you go to an alloy 4130 Chrome moly .083" thick a good weight savings but much more expensive. And has to be TIG welded.

These are just some ideas and facts to blend in with what you are planning.



Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized
1949 3A W/S
1957 CJ5 Frame Modified
Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2018 at 11:41pm
Also CG is like a see saw if you have 200lbs 3ft above the CG it will take 400lbs 15" below CG to balance it. Its a simple lever. Keep this also in mind when thinking you can balance the weight of something like a rollbar or top heavy payload.

If we are to think of our Jeeps like a lever then the outer edge of the tires is the fulcrum point and CG is the end of the lever. If you raise the end of the lever "past" the fulcrum in a vertical orientation it will continue past the fulcrum (your now in a roll either to the side or front to back) it will continue on its path as gravity is now pulling it down. If you raqise the CG just to the point of balance your one of them goofy cars driving on two wheels (on the SAME SIDE of the car).

 
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1948 2A Body Customized
1949 3A W/S
1957 CJ5 Frame Modified
Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan. 2018 at 7:20pm
So here are a pair of redone cage designs. Basically, they're just two takes on pulling a few of the bars out.

I'm also working on an exo cage design. I'll post it when I have it done.


redesign #1


redesign #2


Of the two, I like the second better as it has better triangulation between the main hoop and the windshield hoop, and has no bars directly overhead. It will also be tougher to build.


Edited by LesBerg - 28 Jan. 2018 at 7:34pm
1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div
6th Infantry Reg
3rd Infantry Bn
Headquarters Company #161

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan. 2018 at 7:51pm
I don't own a roll bar other than my two Jeep Wranglers, but I do not see any triangulation plates welded in corners. I would think with those, you could use smaller tubing and keep the same distortion strength of larger tubing. In other words, the pipe cage could not tilt to one side when impacted from the side. Most likely the tube itself would bend inwards. Just a thought. Oilly
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