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starter not engaging flywheel
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NealzWorld View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Oct. 2020 at 9:58pm
Got a 47 2A.  running on 12 volts but using original 6v starter.  been using it for three years, no problems.  about 6 months ago it started acting up, it would get stuck on.  would push the button to start the jeep, when you let off the button it would keep going, like the throw out bearing was getting stuck.  took it to a starter shop and they disassembled it, said the contacts were dirty and worn, to be expected, and they switched the contacts around.  That fixed that problem.  Not sure if any of that has to do with the problem now, just figured id give some background info.

The problem now, is that the starter will not even engage the flywheel.  It will throw out and spin like hell.   It started doing it about two weeks ago intermittently.    I put a wrench on the bolts holding it to the bell housing and found they were a little loose.  i probably got half a turn on them.  This solved the problem.   So i took the bolts back out, and replaced the 70 year old lock washers with new ones. And now it wont start at all!  

The teeth on the starter are all there and look in good shape.  The teeth on the flywheel are visibly worn.  

Any thoughts?  
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Bret View Drop Down
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12 volts slams the starter drive into the ring gear so after replacing the bendix drive 3 times over the years I purchased a 12 volt gear reduction starter from eBay. Bolted right up and I haven’t had an issue since (3 or 4 years). I see they’re currently about $190. Of course if you’re wanting an original look this won’t solve the problem. 
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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A View Drop Down
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Have your starter rewound for 12 volt, or buy a 12 volt conversion that will fit your bellhousing. I think you will be amazed at how much better the 12 volt starter will operate compared to 6 volt starter running on 12 volts.

I would be concerned about the condition of your flywheel ring gear. If it still starts OK after you change your starter then keep in mind that the first time your transmission is out of the jeep then you probably need to change out the ring gear to be on the safe side.
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Not sure if this is related to your problem, but the starter pictured doesn't look like a MZ4113 CJ2A starter. It is engaged by the solenoid rather than the spiral threads of the bendix.
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Is the starter bushing in the bellhousing severely worn or missing? 
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Does the ring gear match the starter?
What is the ring gear tooth count?  97, 124, or 129

What is the tooth count on the starter? 9 or 10 

PS.  Bret - you could be on to something with the 12 volt slamming the bendix style gear into the flywheel.  I have destroyed a few Bendixs in recent years - with relatively light use and had been chalking it up to poor quality replacement parts.  I have a NOS Bendix on my trail Jeep currently and every once in a while, it sounds like things are not going well when it engages.  
Stev
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NealzWorld View Drop Down
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Thanks for all the replies guys.

I see I may have more than one problem on my hands.  12v on a 6v starter, bell housing bushing, maybe wrong match up of ring gear and pinion gear.   The pinion has 9 teeth.  Not sure on the ring gear.  Been trying to find a picture of my flywheel so I can count the teeth....  

Most likely just going to end up buying the 12v gear reduction starter as suggested.   The starter on there isn't original anyway, not too worried about the look.  

Need to find out how many teeth on my ring gear.....    
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It is very tedious, but clean & paint one tooth of the flywheel through the starter hole. Then while counting teeth, turn the engine, by hand, until that tooth comes back around.

I have done this & it works well. I painted every tenth tooth with a different color of paint. That way when I got interrupted, I did not have to start over.

Good luck pictures would be easier.
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Originally posted by cpt logger cpt logger wrote:

It is very tedious, but clean & paint one tooth of the flywheel through the starter hole. Then while counting teeth, turn the engine, by hand, until that tooth comes back around.

I have done this & it works well. I painted every tenth tooth with a different color of paint. That way when I got interrupted, I did not have to start over.

Good luck pictures would be easier.

Im slowly realizing that is what I may end up having to do, im not sure i have the patience for it tho!

This may be the time to overhaul the tranny, fix the synchronizer that throws it out of second gear.  And count the teeth on the flywheel...
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NealzWorld View Drop Down
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124 teeth on the ring gear
9 teeth on the pinion gear

I believe this is the correct matchup? 

Teeth on the ring gear look a little worn, doesnt look like enough to cause any real problems, tho I'm no expert.  The teeth on the pinion gear look more worn, not sure what they looked like when they were new, and i cannot find this starter anywhere to compare.   It is a prestolite MZ4173.  All i can find close to that is the autolite MZ4137.... 

Just trying to figure out why this thing just up and quit working.   Think the teeth on either end just finally got worn down enough to not engage?  
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NealzWorld View Drop Down
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Originally posted by cpt logger cpt logger wrote:

Is the starter bushing in the bellhousing severely worn or missing? 

It's there, hard to tell how worn it is, It's been in there a long time.   So if it is worn out, the starter would be sitting low, and the gear may not throw out all the way?  Just hits the edge of the flywheel instead of meshing with the teeth.   

Update:  Went and stuck my head down in the engine bay and noticed the bushing was sticking out about 1/4".  Seemed weird, so I grabbed it and pulled it right out.....   It does fit loosely on the starter shaft...  Could this be the cause of my issues?  
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 Have you tested the solenoid to make sure it is working and strong enough to move the gear into the flywheel?  Maybe you could bench check it by holding a piece of wood against it to see how much force it has.

   Jim
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  Even if the bushing were completely gone, I don’t think that the drive gear could miss the ring gear completely. The over-running clutch in your drive is probably shot. 
BW 
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I don’t have a like model here to look at, but I’m guessing the part at the base of the starter gear is a one way clutch to prevent over running the starter. Maybe someone more familiar with the 3A-3b starters would know. If that is a clutch It probably is sticking or stripped and letting the gear free wheel part of the time, it would explain why it bench tests ok but won’t turn the engine. Your flywheel teeth are worn but from what I’m seeing it should be serviceable, I would replace that bell housing bushing though.
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Originally posted by WeeWilly WeeWilly wrote:


 Have you tested the solenoid to make sure it is working and strong enough to move the gear into the flywheel?  Maybe you could bench check it by holding a piece of wood against it to see how much force it has.

   Jim

SO there is a stop on the shaft of the starter armature, while I had the starter out of the jeep i played with the solenoid arm to see how far out it went.   When in the jeep trying to start it the arm is going all the out.   Didn't think about the force of it not being enough to get into the ring.


Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

  Even if the bushing were completely gone, I don’t think that the drive gear could miss the ring gear completely. The over-running clutch in your drive is probably shot. 
BW 

Seems safe to say the problem is with the starter itself, not much else it could be, unless the teeth on the ring gear were sheared off.   Going to go ahead and order the 12v gear reduction starter.   See what that does for me.  And replace the bell housing bushing as suggested!  Thanks all for your help!!   
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Originally posted by NealzWorld NealzWorld wrote:

Originally posted by WeeWilly WeeWilly wrote:


 Have you tested the solenoid to make sure it is working and strong enough to move the gear into the flywheel?  Maybe you could bench check it by holding a piece of wood against it to see how much force it has.

   Jim

SO there is a stop on the shaft of the starter armature, while I had the starter out of the jeep i played with the solenoid arm to see how far out it went.   When in the jeep trying to start it the arm is going all the out.   Didn't think about the force of it not being enough to get into the ring.


Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

  Even if the bushing were completely gone, I don’t think that the drive gear could miss the ring gear completely. The over-running clutch in your drive is probably shot. 
BW 

Seems safe to say the problem is with the starter itself, not much else it could be, unless the teeth on the ring gear were sheared off.   Going to go ahead and order the 12v gear reduction starter.   See what that does for me.  And replace the bell housing bushing as suggested!  Thanks all for your help!!   

You don't need the bellhousing bushing with the 12v gear reduction starter
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Well that's handy!
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Originally posted by dasvis dasvis wrote:

You don't need the bellhousing bushing with the 12v gear reduction starter


I like mine alot.
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